Great thread. At least the last few posts.

Thanks to the both of you Sinatra and PB!

NP. Again, if you want the site, just shoot me a personal message.

I completely agree with what Serp's been saying. First, I think that Scarfo being the homicidal maniac that everyone says is all relative. All of Scarfo's hits were legit according to the "rules". While I think the Salvi Testa hit was probably a bad move on his part in the grand scheme of things (he was a real asset to the family), it was at the end of the day legit if you take "honor" and "respect" of the life into account. I also read that Salvie was being abrasive with Scarfo and even spit in the face of Chuckie Merlino. When you start disrespecting the boss and underboss then yeah you can call that "too big for his britches". If you compare Scarfo to Anthony Gaspipe Casso, Vic Amuso, John Gotti, Gravano, etc, they make Scarfo look like the minor leagues. It's just part of the life and like Serp said, the 80s were a treacherous time. I also agree that Scarfo watched what happened to Bruno and Testa in the two years before he became boss and just seeing that would make anyone a little paranoid or quick to squash any potential threats... still within rules too! Anyways, I think for all the flack Scarfo takes for being a bad boss and all that, in my humble opinion I think he was actually one of the better ones as far LCN. Sure, different style than Bruno, but for what it's worth he was LCN and followed the rules and was all business and maintained alot of power and made a lot of money for he and the family.

Sinatra: Sent you a PM. Thanks again!

@Snakes,it is a great thread indeed.And the posters here that pay attention know that when it comes to Chicago you are very well informed and a great poster in general.@Phil Mob,I haven't heard about the spitting incident.That alone would be enough to have Testa killed surely.I don't believe it happened.I am sure that it was made as an excuse to kill him.But from all accounts Testa was very much loyal to Cosa Nostra and just would not do that to the underboss.Scarfo,as stated above by Serpiente,I believe,did not break the rules either until after he became boss.According to Leonetti,the only time prior to his becoming boss that he did balk at the rules was toward the end of Bruno.Bruno approached Scarfo and attempting to make a case to kill Phil Testa tried to influence Scarfo to turn on Testa.Scarfo,via Manna,already knew some changes were coming,didn't bite.At this time Bruno started throwing "curves" at Scarfo to the point that Scarfo started calling Bruno "lefty".Scarfo told Leonetti that if Bruno threw them another Curve on the unions that there would be "resistance" and that he "Scarfo",was not backing down.Other than that Leonetti had never heard him backbite the boss.After he became boss,he threw all the rules out the window to the point I don't think you could compare him to the other Bosses mentioned above.During the Riccobene war,there were two soldiers killed in front of their mothers and one of the poor old ladies was hit in the head with the butt of a shotgun.After finding out Joe Salerno would be taking the stand again Scarfo had a hit on his elderly father who was a citizen.He lived.But it went against all the rules.He ordered Salvie Testa be killed at a funeral home during the wake of a family member of one of his soldiers.Just pathetic.He ordered his wifes neck be cut ear to ear for gambling his money.There are many more examples.And Leonetti should be rotting away with him

That may have been Chuckie Merlino who wanted it done at the funeral home. I'm not too sure on that though, could've very well had been Scarfo. And I agree that Scarfo wasn't some homicidal serial killer. All the deaths under his reign, aside from the Joe Salerno thing were all mafia guys or guys who made careers in the underworld, like Frankie Flowers and Mickey Coco. Its funny because the docs will claim Scarfo violated and began killing innocents when he killed Vince Falcone. But they don't mention that Falcone was a wannabe wise guy himself.

@Sinatra,Falcone was absolutely part of that life.The guy never should have came around Atlantic City again once he badmouthed Scarfo and Leonetti.And I agree that the elder Salerno shooting aside,these were all pretty much mob matters when Scarfo ordered them killed.Merlino did love the idea and decided that the funeral home would be the place in which to Kill Testa.But ultimately the ok came from Scarfo on that.Scarfo though became ruthless and paranoid to the extent that it was just no more (and I use this word loosely) honor.He ordered lifelong friends Nick "the Blade" Virgilio and even his longer friend and underboss Merlinokilled because their drinking was getting out of hand.Yet his own son was even arrested around this same time for drinking and driving or underage drinking.Cant remember.I mean Gotti had a couple of dui arrest and I assure you Big Paul,who probally didn't even like Gotti at this time,much less had been a lifelong friend,never even entertained the thought ofkilling him over it.Scarfo even ordered Chuckie Merlino's brother killed if he came to Atlantic City because of it.The Testa killing,from what I have read,along with everything else,made the soldiers in this family want to run to the feds to cut deals out of fear of being killed for practically nothing.Scarfo was smart.He was a true gangster in every sense.He could have had a long run in which he controlled Atlantic City and Philly.It should have been beautiful.But the Salerno thing,something like that will make the feds come hard and become relentless.His soldiers no longer respected him.Scarfo just became "drunk" with the power and just ruined that family.He was a better and smarter gangster than that.He just became too paranoid.I love tho think what could have been.Salvie Testa was excactly what that Wall Street Journal article said.Even more.At 28 years old,he was a capo.But if you look at his crew,they were all young,loyal and stone cold killers.Pungitore,the Grandes,The Narduccis,Gino Milano,Nicky Whip,I believe the Scafidis.These guys all made name for themselves as mobsters.Most of them as I mentioned before had already seen war with the Riccobenes and had handled it well.Infact had won the war.And Salvie,As Nicky "Crow" stated,while only 28 was much more street smart than most already because of his father.If Salvie had lived and if Salvie had wanted he probally very well could have taken over that family with this crew.Scarfo and Leonetti realized this,ofcourse

Vince was no good .He was a big mouth ,back stabbing J/O .He treated woman like shit and his so called friends the same.
He did not get "hit"for just coming back around ,he was talking shit to anybody that would listen.
Phil took a liken to him,(how I have no idea) and knew the concrete bizz.(they needed someone for that)But him and Phil hung out for a pretty long time ,and they were doing shit here and there.I know the Philly guys that came down did not like this guy.
He was the kind of guy that you would not like the first night you spent time with him.(trust me)
The time he was around was a pretty busy time for the family, and there was a lot of talk going in his ears,The guys would drink and start talking in the bars and in the clubs(the Blade was the worst),he would hear shit, then he would turn around and tell it to his boys same night(could not be trusted)this is when Nicky found this out and he was hot,cos he was letting this guy close.(to close)Nick was close to letting him on a crew.
That's when they started to plant stuff in his ear(set him up) ,and when it came back that was it,Nick hated him that second.
And once he did not like something ,that was it..

The thing that gets me is once these guys turned on him he kept coming back and running that mouth .The guys treated him like shit on the street and in the bars and clubs,and he knew it.
The guys he hung with told him he was not liked and he talked to much .
The main thing is he did a couple things with Phil ,and Phil and others said a few things he should not have.And that's what got that guy killed.
If he did not have that big mouth they would have never herd about this guy,there was three cement contractors in two blocks from Nick,that's how hard this guy pushed to get close,Nick could have gotten any one of them in a second.

Serp, can you say anymore about the Philly guys with Jr? Are these well known Philly members or associates? Were these people close with Merlino and his crew?

What age was Vince Falcone? His then wife is Leonetti's current wife, right?

If he would have been the same age as Leonetti now then he would have been pretty young when he was killed.

He may have treated women like shit but the way Scarfo's kid, Testa's kid and Merlino treated women is pretty common knowledge. He can't have been any worse than them.

And Scarfo Sr's temper would have made him a liability anywhere else other than Philly, no?

That's why he was banished to Atlantic City wasn't it?

I mean he built his reputation with violence, didn't he? Way he stabbed that sailor to death that time.

I don't know what this threads about anymore. Guy got shot a lot and hasn't been in philly I read in 20 years. His dads back around bmaybe him to. I read Joe was down myrtle beach and sent some flowers to some old gangsters wake who died a few years back.if you take veaseys book for what its worth he was around stanfa with a chalk board trying to kill his brother. And would drive to Michael grave and piss. Veasey killed mike in august 93 got made in September and was wearing a wire by Christmas so he may if its true he got made turned rat faster then anyone.

At least Veasey & Previte didn't pretend they had any loyalties like some people.

By all accounts, The Oregon Diner thing was something that really wasn't Scarfo's fault. Of course the pro-government documentaries like to paint it that way. Nicky and a few of his guys sat down in a diner after the guy got up from the seat. It doesnt seem as if they knew he was sitting there. The guy comes back and typical asshole "this is my seat, get out my seat" shit, in a public place with no designated seats. Either way, he was a big guy, was getting the best of Scarfo, was basically choking him to death and in his defense, Scarfo stabbed him with the first thing he grabbed.

And again,pro-fed docs. Nicky Scarfo & Angelo Bruno were actually pretty close according to guys like Caramandi, Tommy Del & Leonetti. And they fell out toward the end. Over AC, over Phil Testa & when Philly CN began turning on Bruno. The paperclip thing has a few different interpretations, Caramandi interprets it one way, Leonetti another and Anastasia another. Caramandi & Leonettis however doesn't seem as negative as Anastasia's view of things.

Nicky Scarfo's family, including the Piccolo's, had established themselves in AC since like the 50's. So Scarfo always had somewhat of a base there. I've come to see the "banishment to AC" thing, as more of a mob myth than anything. Again, considering how long the Piccolo's/Leonetti's/Scarfo's actually had been there.

Curiosity: I could not answer that if I knew first hand.
But I will say this ,His dad was boss and had many supporters and friends .These people just don't move away ,they may lay low.
They may just follow the new guys.They even do there own thing. This is a big area south Jersey and north jersey Philly also.
So there were people out there that support anything but what was going on the last 20 years.(I don't know how half the guys in Philly are recognized,the way they made each other)
All those people still live here(and Philly) or they are from Philly and there sisters or brothers live here,and we all still go to same partys and same beaches or casino or night clubs,you hear things.
And you never ask a name or elaborate.

I've heard he's not nearly as physically damaged as it is made out to be, but is shunned by the guys in and around that life.

I wonder what kind of relationship (if any) he has with his brother, considering the guys his brother runs with are responsible for what happened to him.

He was at work in the early hours of the morning when the assassination attempt happened, so I am assuming that he has a stronger work ethic than most wiseguys.

So I wonder if he's still working in the restaurant business in any capacity.

That was Joey's routine. And he had to be open that early, he served breakfast and lunch to the truckers and workers along that block, as well as his fellow Stanfa faction guys. And the place he operated was only open from around 7-8 AM to 3 PM, at which point, he'd lock that place up, walk down the block and spend the rest of the day with Stanfa & the other guys, at Stanfa's company warehouse.

Always found it odd with regard to the Joey Chang hit, that working alongside him that morning was Susan Lucibello, Gaeton Lucibello's wife. I know Lucibello was a Stanfa guy at one point before flipping sides. Pretty sure the hit took place after that timeframe. Seems odd that no one gave Gaeton a subtle heads up to maybe keep the old lady home that day?

And someone mentioned above about Joey going and pissing on his brothers grave. It was also mentioned somewhere that Joey Chang still hung around the Stanfa guys even after being shot. Can't remember where I read it, but apparently he had it out for his brother until his final day.

A book on the Ciancaglini family would be absolutely fascinating. Won't ever happen unless one of them agrees to cooperate one day, which seems highly unlikely at this point.

Still can't get used to people calling Ciancaglini "Chang". This sounds like a Chinese surname Joe Chang, Jackie Chan, Teddy Wang etc

If it was just that, Falcone maybe could have been considered an innocent victim. But he was a murderer: he and Leonetti killed Louis DeMarco in 1976, at least Leonetti in his book says Falcone did in fact even shoot DeMarco personally along with Leonetti, he wasn't just a getaway driver or fingerman.

Dwalin > or anyone ,I read that book at the beach over a couple days or more. But I don't recall him telling that .
Also did he tell who killed Pepa Leva .
There are a couple things in the book that are true that we thought were not and the other way around.

Cos those two murders were done with the people in AC knowing lots about before and after what was going on. Not like the others that were more LCN type .Most people out side of there made guys did not know about the people or the drama involved.

I bought it in Italian, however there is a sentence which says something like "me and Vince unloaded our pistols on him" or something like that.

Thanks, did it say anything about Pepa Leva ?

I don't remember, but I haven't finished it yet anyway. Later will tell you if I notice something about this in the book.

Alfredo Ferraro killed Pepe Leva, according to this report.

Page 27 of 105 on the PDF

http://www.state.nj.us/sci/pdf/ocbars2.pdf

Whip: thanks ,,I was wondering what Phil put out there,I pretty sure it was not Al ,now it could have been ,but I always herd different from that.

Yeah Leonetti and Vince Falcone supposedly shot Lou Demarco in a hotel parking lot in AC for Chickie Narducci bc DeMarco was stealing from
chickie's card games back in Philly. Demarco was hiding out in AC.

In Mafia Prince, Leonetti says both he & Falcone emptied their pistols into DeMarco. He says, he fired the first shot to his head which sent the guy to the ground, then he and Falcone just emptied their clips. According to Leonetti.

He also doesn't say who killed Pepe Leva, just that it was "a guy from our family".

Hmmm just what I thought , it has been a who's who for all these years,still don't know.