During the drug meeting with sollozzo, Sonny makes the fatal gaffe of opening his mouth and in the process gives sollozzo the idea that he was hot for the deal.

My question is, do you think clem and tess knew he messed up? The camera zooms in on both and they did look nervous.

They all knew he messed up, except maybe Fredo.

Showing Tessio and Clemenza's expression put an exclamation point on Sonny's mis-speak. OOOops. The old man is gonna kick his ass.

Imagine sitting face to face with someone who could either become your next business partner...or an assassin determined to rub you out - depending very much on precisely what was said during the meeting, how it was said, and by whom - or what was left entirely unsaid. Pressure, anyone?

I just can't fathom how anyone could actually live on the edge of a knife in that manner.

~ Q

You couldn't miss the expression on Clemenza's face.

I like how Vito's tone and delivery changed after he shushed Sonny; he was truly angry in that moment and trying to keep it in for the sake of the discussion, whilst managing to get a rebuke over to Sonny. I think everyone in the room could sense the heat and so left very quietly.

I think Sonny should've been made to pay for that little indiscretion. If Vito wanted to see what Sollozzo had 'under his fingernails', he would need a prying tool, not a hammer. Luca Brasi was his hammer. Sonny just became the new prying tool.

"Since you seem to be so talkative today, I've got a job for you. I want you to go to the Tattaglias. Find out more about this Sollozzo guy, see what he's got under his fingernails. Make 'em think that I'm holding you down in the Family."

I think Sonny would've been able to play it out quite a bit better with regards to Sollozzo; it was quite clear that he was hot for the deal, so there would be precedent for Sonny to come to Sollozzo. With Luca Brasi still in play, the Don is still quite well protected, and he has the option of dropping the hammer at any time.

An interesting idea which seems quite plausible. My question is: Wouldn't the Tattaglias be the least bit suspicious about Vito's own son going behind his father's back? Even if Sonny presented himself as merely conducting due diligence, so as to convince Vito to go for the deal, rather than an outright betrayal?

Also, if Vito was the least bit concerned about Sonny having exposed the family to danger by his gaffe at the Sollozzo meeting, wouldn't he be even more concerned about inviting trouble, by sending Sonny to push the issue even further? Or did Vito by this point realize that the family (and himself personally) had already been put in so much danger, that he had nothing much to lose by taking the initiative in order to protect himself?

It's important to keep in mind how the novel describes Luca's implementation of Vito's instructions. The novel makes it clear that such implementation took place over many months. How would Sonny have implemented those instructions? From what we know about Sonny, he would have been too impetuous. Otherwise, Q makes good points. In other threads we've discussed Luca's legendary loyalty to Vito and how Tattaglia and Barzini would not have been fooled. As Q points out, sending Sonny on such a mission wold have screamed deception.

I started a thread in this general direction here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post444618

That thread is an excellent read, Turnbull. I've read it a couple of times and actually read it just before I posted my 'possible scenario' with Sonny acting in place of Luca.

Luca's just not the man for that job. Every toolkit needs a hammer, but a hammer isn't always the most appropriate tool. Vito essentially used his hammer where he needed a screwdriver and nearly paid with his life for it.

If Luca Brasi walks into that bar with anything but murder on his mind, he's dead. I'm not sure that the pretense in that case would've mattered to Sollozzo/Tattaglia. At that point, they need to eliminate Vito. Before they can do that, they have to neutralize Luca. He could've called Tattaglia and told him that the Corleones haven't bought enough Girl Scout cookies from his daughter, and she really wants that prize bike. They would've told him to bring all the Thin Mints he can carry. (Why he felt that he needed to wear body armor, yet go in unarmed is questionable in and of itself.)

I don't think that there is a man within the Corleone ranks that would be a 100% fit for the job of spy in this case. I mentioned Sonny because of his gaffe at the meeting creating a precedent for coming to see Sollozzo. He presents himself as dissatisfied, slighted and ambitious. If he can gain some level of trust, he may gain some information that could help the Corleones down the line. That's a big if though.

It begs the question though, what did Vito think that Sollozzo had 'under his fingernails'? The only thing I can surmise is that Vito may have thought that someone more big time than Tattaglia was pulling the strings behind the scenes and he wanted to see which of the other families were putting in on the deal besides the Tattaglias.

Turnbull's solution with Luca and the drug dealer in the linked thread would've been the most prudent.

That is a logical assumption, jrp:

Vito told Michael (and presumably, Tom): "Think as others around you think." If Vito (and Tom) had been thinking strategically, they would have concluded that Sol needed three things: the credibility of working with one of the Five Families; a lot of working capital, and police/political protection. But Sol had something big to give in return: the money his partner earned with him through drugs would buy more police/political protection, making the partner stronger.

Vito had everything Sol needed, but Vito was already on top with businesses that were a lot less risky than Sol's. So, Sol might first have contacted Barzini, who he knew was younger than the other Dons, more ambitious, thinking of himself as Capo di Tutti Capi in waiting. Barzini would have heard him out and replied: "Your logic is good. But you still need Corleone's police/political protection. If he hears that I'm backing you, he'll say no. Go to Tattaglia--he's a pimp; Corleone isn't worried about him. Tell Tattaglia and Corleone anything you want, but I'll be your real partner--your silent partner--I'll have your back at all times."

If Vito (and Tom) were in their think-as-others-around-you-think mode, they'd have smelled a rat. But they weren't in that mode. In fact, it's amazing that it took Vito until after the Commission meeting to figure out that "it was Barzini all along."

I actually think that Sonny might have been able to pull that off. Not, of course, in the sense of wanting to betray his family since that wouldn't likely be believed (although not outside the realm of possibility) but I think he could have presented it as him wanting to get a little side action under the table without Don Corleone knowing about it. "Pop doesn't like the drug racket, but I think it's gonna be the coming thing in the future. So I'd like to, ah, you know... wet my beak a little on my own."

Ultimately though the issue is the minute that Vito refused Sollozzo, it was a declaration of war. So in the end no matter who went to try and get information about Tattaglia, it would probably have been suspected immediately as a Corleone plot because right after the refusal it was determined that Vito had to be killed. Seeing as Vito was not stupid, any Corleone person, even some lowly button man, asking questions would be suspect and probably killed off just in case they were a spy.

Out of all the Corleone men, Sonny would've been the most likely to be able to pull off such a coup. Sonny was Sollozzo's potential "in" with the Corleone family and its resources, so he would've been safe from a plot on his life...at least temporarily. Luca Brasi had no such safety going in.

The problems that I can see with Sonny wanting to wet his beak in the drugs trade on his own are twofold: firstly, what is Sonny going to bring to the table? He wouldn't have direct access to his father's resources, such as the political and legal contacts, financing, et al, especially if he's meant to be flying below Corleone radar as it were. Those were the things that Sollozzo wanted from the Corleones at the outset.

Secondly, his temper. I've no doubt that Sollozzo would've sought to test Sonny. Quite likely, Sollozzo would bring up the subject of needing Vito "out of the picture" so that Sonny could ascend the throne. I don't think Sonny would've been able to hold frame with talk of his father being whacked. He would lose his temper...and blow his cover. At best, he gets sent packing with no real intel. At worst, he gets sent packing to the bottom of the Hudson River by way of cement shoes.

While it's possible that any member of the Corleone family who had attended the meeting with Sollozzo and Bruno Tattalglia could have put his life in danger by doing so, the one likely exception would have been Sonny - whom Sollozzo needed to keep alive in order to recruit him as a potential future business partner in the narcotics trade.

By this point, the only member of the Coreleone family who definitely had a target on his back - in addition to Vito himself - was Luca Brasi, as liquidating Luca was the key to the success of Vito's assassination, which in turn was the key to the success of the entire new enterprise.

The fact that Vito selected Luca to go straight to Sollozzo was just a very convenient bit of serendipity from Sollozzo's standpoint. If Luca has not made it easy for them by walking right into their trap, they would have had to devise some other means by which to take him out.

~ Q

I really don't understand why many people in this thread think Sonny was well-suited for an undercover mission.

He was the least discreet person in the entire Family and the most ill-suited for a mission that required deception and subtlety.

Truly, Sonny was about as subtle as a herd of cattle stampeding through a jingle bell factory. However, the belief is that Sonny would've been the most likely to be able to pull off such a feat out of all the Corleones. Tom might be a close second if his lack of Sicilian heritage didn't come back to bite him in the butt. Any other Corleone family member would've been marked out immediately as a spy and dealt with accordingly.

Sonny's saving grace for such a mission would be the precedent he created by his gaffe in the meeting where he made it abundantly clear to Sollozzo that he wanted the deal in spite of Vito's wishes. His cover would be that precedent, and Sollozzo would be loathe to whack him for potential espionage being that Sonny was his potential path to the Corleone resources that he needed.

If Sonny could hold frame for such a mission (and that's a big if at best), he could potentially bring some useful information back. He's certainly a better choice than Luca Brasi for that mission; Vito's cat would've been a better choice than Luca Brasi.

As revealed in Vito's "Is this necessary?" response to receiving Luca at the wedding, Vito's actually ambivalent about Luca's role so close to him. We simply don't know how many times Vito has sent Luca into risky situations that Luca emerged from intact. In the book, Vito says something like, "Luca was such an extraordinary man that no one could kill him for a long time." You couldn't know that unless you had tested it out, and my guess is that Vito had long seen Luca as an expendable asset.

Ya got that right! From a purely temperamental standpoint - though not from a strategic standpoint - Michael would have been the logical choice for such a mission. IF he had been involved in the family business at that point, that is.

Michael's intelligence; his cunning; his innate courage, poise, and self-confidence; his instinctual political savvy; and his military experience made him ideally suited for a reconnaissance mission.

~ Q

Then again, cats have a well-earned reputation as skilled and subtle infiltrators, con artists, and saboteurs. Vito could have gotten all the intel on Sollozzo he would ever need - for the price of just a can of sardines.

~ Q

as we know the Tattaglias and Sol saw through Luca's ruse. I have no clue how it would be the least bit plausible for Sonny to go to them and pretend he had differences with his father over the drug business. All this would have done was send a message to Barzini that the Corleones were not only weak, but that they were divided within the family. Talk about the Don Slippin....

To put another spin on this thread:

Sonny's gaffe, and the greed it betrayed, was the cornerstone of Sol's decision to kill Vito. Sol was convinced that Sonny could be persuaded to settle with him, rather than to go to war. No doubt that's exactly what he told Tatt and perhaps the other Dons: there will be no war because Sonny is hot for my deal.

Suppose Sonny had kept his mouth shut. Do you think Sol still would have attempted to kill Vito? Would the others have gone along with it?

Good question. I think Sol would have pushed to eliminate Vito whether Sonnny had run his mouth or not. It was telling that Sol said to Hagen that "Sonny was hot for my idea," AND "YOU KNEW IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO." The second part of this shows that Sol was convinced that the had a tough issue on their hands, and they could be divided and conquered over the narcotics trade. Again, we have evidence of this by the comments made by the Detroit Don at the meeting when he talked about how he paid his people extra not to deal drugs, but it still didn't work because, "they can't resist."
Still, I have serious doubts the other families would have gone with something as exteme as a hit on Corleone. No one really wanted a full scale war, and I think what would have happened was that the other families would have gone into the drug rackets without the Corleone political protection and then chipped away at their terriories. Hagen, when he briefed Sony and Vito on the issue opined that if the family did not get into the drug business it would have an adverse affect on their strength after five years, at which time the other families could then go after them

Sonny would've been a long shot at best, I admit, but he would've been the only one at the time with enough clout to pull it off. Sollozzo/Tattaglia/Barzini might have taken it at face value and gone for it. Sollozzo knew that Sonny was at odds with his father about the drugs business, and he could possibly take Sonny's approach as a ray of hope for his deal. A long shot, yes, but better than the chance Luca Brasi had.

Remember though that there is no real division in the Corleone family in this scenario. If Sonny could pull it off and get Sollozzo to stick his neck out there, Vito still has Luca Brasi standing ready as his executioner.

If Sonny had kept his mouth shut, I'm of the mind that Sollozzo would've had to refrain from whacking Vito. The other families wouldn't have sanctioned the hit if they thought it would only lead to all out war. Sollozzo would have nothing to gain from it, since doing so would not net him the contacts and financing he wanted.

dt and jrp: Vito's "no" put Sol in a bind: if he simply accepted it, he would be unable to build his wholesale business the way he envisioned it. I can't see him just walking away from that. I agree that, if Sonny had kept his mouth shut, the other families would not have gone along with a hit on Vito for fear of starting a war. But I believe Sol would have attempted the hit on Vito anyway, and presented the other families with a fait accompli. If he succeeded, there was still a chance that Hagen could convince Sonny to come to terms and avoid a destructive war. If he failed, the Corleones would come after Sol and Tatt, not the rest of them. His fait accompli would put the other families in the position of supporting him to avoid a war--as he told Michael, "The Tattaglias are behind me with all their people. The other families will go along with anything that prevents a war." He was probably right.

The event that precipitated the war was not the attempt on Vito's life per se. It was Michael's killing of Sol and Mac. The novel points out that the NYPD issued a decree: all illegal activity by the Five Families would be shut down until Mac's killer was given up. The Families sent an emissary to the Corleones, requesting that they give up Mac's killer so that business as usual could resume. They were told that the affair did not concern them. That's when the war started.

TB, you're right about what precipitated the war. But for some reason I've never felt comfortable with Sonny's outburst being the motivation for Sollozzo's attempted murder of Vito (despite that that's what Puzo/FFC want us to believe). Had the murder succeeded, there are several ducks that had to be in a row for that murder to have the desired outcome. For one, Sollozzo would have to count on Sonny's viewing the murder as just business and his not going after Sollozzo with blind fury. One other duck is that Sonny could assume effective control of the Corleone family and provide the drug operation with the political and legal cover that Sollozzo wanted. The last one is that when Sollozzo entered the meeting he didn't know that Sonny would be hot for his drug deal. So, either Sollozzo entered the meeting prepared to accept Vito's possible No or that he would murder Vito anyway as a result of that No.

That point is well taken, Oli. Tom surmised that, if Vito died, the family would lose half of its political protection. Therefore, it followed that the defecting half would be up for grabs--by Sol and the other Dons. Then Sol could bargain with Sonny for the half that remained loyal to the Corleones at reduced rates. All of that was a big assumption.

But, Sol (and Tom, for that matter) miscalculated in assuming that Sonny would cooperate. He couldn't--precisely because his gaffe betrayed his greed and put Vito in harm's way. If Vito died and Sonny made the deal, Tess and Clem (and probably plenty of people under them) might assume that he actually welcomed (or at least wasn't too put out by) Vito's death so he could get into the drugs racket. How could Sonny credibly run the family with such a cloud hanging over him?

Is Sonny had not made the gaffe, Sol would have not had everything lined up the way he liked, but he still had the financial protection of Tatt and Barzini. There was also some kind of legal cover because Sol had McCluskey in his pocket. Perhaps the legal cover was not as great as it would have been with Vito's support, but it would have to do until Sol could chip away at the Corleone territories.

I think the war began with the shooting of Vito. After it was clear he wass not mortally wounded there was a second attempt on his life, which Michael thwarted at the hospital. For that, Michael got his jaw punched out by McCluskey, and in turn Sonny killed Bruno Tattaglia. The war was on.

Sol was not strong enough to present Vito's death as a fait accompli to Barzini. Had he done so, Barzini and Tattaglia would have had to choose between a full scale war, or cutting their losses by offering Sol up as a sacrificial lamb to the Corleones, and just waiting for the right opening.

As Sol well know, blood is a big expense.

I think commencement of the war was a two-step process. The first was Sollozzo-Tattaglia (perhaps with support from Barzini) v. the Corleones, over drugs. The second was the Five Families against the Corleones, which was set off by the killing of McCluskey. The Corleones were able to defuse McCluskey as an issue, but by that time blood had been spilled and everyone wanted a piece of the drugs action as part of the peace.

TB, if it had ever come to that, why would the other families not have simply cut Sollozzo loose? Wouldn't that have been a lot less risky and expensive than doubling down on the Sollozzo gambit? Or are you suggesting that, given the huge profit potential in the narcotics trade, that they would not have been able to resist the temptation to get rich, by sticking with Sollozzo instead?



My sense of it as well. Then again, not being a gangster, the willingness to trade blood for treasure doesn't actually occur to me very instinctively.

~ Q