i dont think it can be explained any other way than the fall of ethic nieghborhoods along with the meteoric rise of italian-americans. I am not talking about bullshit like national politicans, but the fact on average they are successful as any group. If you are smart, why join the mafia when you could be a finance guy or a lawyer?

Check your pm.


Exactly, Nicky. It's assimilation, ten times more than law enforcement, that's changing the face of the American mob.

I find it very interesting that the Outfit here in Chicago doesn't kill people anymore. Obviously a lot of the posters disagree with me, but I still wonder how you keep a large, clandestine criminal network under control without the use of murder.

For these guys to make a lot of money you have to have a lot of criminals kicking up and what on earth is there to stop them from making a deal if they have no fear of getting killed.

People say "well they still beat you up," well, who the f**k cares.

I think that is a pretty telling development and IMO speaks to greatly diminished activity.

I think it's possible they've become a little smarter and figured out ways to circumvent violence but at the end of the day I don't really see how a large-scale mob operation functions without murder.

My two cents.

I think you have answered your own question. Activity is way down over historical levels for the outfit. People that try to explain it (no indictments, no murders, no violence) by this super complex, ultra secrecy that even the best guys in NY could never get even close to, I have to laugh.

Plus to relate to the discussion above, the demographics and neighborhoods of chicago, is how should I say, not favorable to the outfit and its future.

Have you learned nothing from Cook County?

Totally agreed.

I have written longer posts saying the same things you guys are discussing here, but just don't want to repeat myself. But obviously demographics, just a changing world (college vs. the mob!), changing cities, better law enforcement, etc etc etc, the future IMO is not very bright for the mob.

well, I think that is the inherent cycle in ethnic based organized crime in foreign nations. After a few generations the bond of that shared ethnic background begins to fade. especially considering America's LCN's steadfast position on only making full blooded italians. perhaps if America suffers further economic windfall and the governmental systems that people are used to will no longer operate as expected, it will necessitate a sort of local unofficial "government" that the Sicilian mob has its roots (allegedly) in. I could see the American mafia taking advantage of such a situation.

Or if Italy suffers a similar fate to Spain and Greece causing a second Italian Diaspora, that may reinvigorate italian communities as migrant Italians settle in areas where other Italians go.

It's hard to say, it was a different world in the late 1800's and many western nations were still going through the growing pains of industrialization.

In Canada, however, I know the Rizzutos made no less than 2 non-Italians -- Thus it could be argued that within the next generation or two, the Montreal factions will begin to face the same issues as their American cohorts.

Italy is suffering the same fate of Spain and Greece.

Unemployment among 20-35 year-olds at 38.6%? Hello?

the Italian diaspora never "ended" either, it got its highs and lows, but it never stopped.
Emigration is up 12% since pre-recession times, meaning roughly btw 75-80 thousand italians moving out each year.

This has been discussed countless times around here: italians do not need to come to L'Ammerica to better their lives.
Wether they're crooks, doctors or anything in between.

Legal immigration in the US is a bureaucratic hellhole, why even bother with that if your nationality allows you to move everywhere around your continent and work paperwork-free in much better off nations less than a 4-hour flight away from home?

The recent ISTAT data shows that the top 3 destinations for Italian immigrants are Germany, Switzerland and the UK (yes, you do need a visa for Switzerland but it's not half as complicated as here).
Then the Netherlands, Austria, France followed.

Even Canada ranked higher than the US.



There's still much speculation about those two guys who (allegedly) got made.
Most think that what happened was an Outfit-like "promotion" for non-Italians.
I seriously doubt than someone so old-schooled like Vito would mess up something so secular and fundamental as the making ceremony.

With this being said, Canada won't face America's assimilation issues in a long time. if ever.

Italian immigration in Canada decreased substantially later compared to down south and these crime families (sicilians and calabrians alike) are still deeply rooted oversea.

Not to mention that Mr. Rico hasn't got up there yet, its absence should boost it too.

my 2 (euro) cents

I know, thats why I didnt specify america as a destination for contemporary italian immigrants.

Although im sure the u.s. is a relatively common location, even if its not among the top. I know argentina is like 45% ethnic Italians

Wasnt there a recording a few years back of one of thos3 non italisns trying to explain to some sicilian mafiosi that he was made? Details are sketchy, I do admit.

Argh sorry for 2x post and spelling. On my phone.

Because to be a lawyer you need money to go to college and you have to work hard. Some people just don't want to do that, they like the easy money, the lifestyle, women, "respect" ecc. Even in the 50's and 60's, when the mob was at its pic, smart Italian-Americans were assimilated enough to become lawyers, but not everyone did. I think the mob is less powerful today because of the aggressive busts of the 80s and 90s by the FBI. Before the 70s, a mobster could do almost everything and getting light sentences. Now with all the rats, RICO, all them bugs, fingerprints, it is less attractive to be a mobster because there is a higher risk to stay in jail for a very long time.

Anyone who says or thinks that RICO or any law enforcement effort has completely destroyed or severely weakened la famiglia, or LCN is delusional.

Agrees with Harry.

do chicago still deal with new york at all?

There's also too much competition in the criminal world nowadays for LCN to have any type of monopoly or stranglehold on crime like they did back in the earlier part of the 20th century.
The LCN's influence and reach has receded while other criminal organizations and gangs have emerged and grown into legitimate threats. And it's not just other typical organized crime entities like the Russian or Asian mobs but also the proliferations of various street gangs that have infested and overtaken many former Mafia strongholds.
Way too much competition and way too many rivals. The changing U.S demographics have helped speed the decline of the Mafia while fueling the rise of other ethnic criminal gangs and organizations.
I doubt the LCN is even the strongest in the Northeast anymore (maybe the most well known).

During Al Capone's day in Chicago, he basically ran the entire criminal underworld in the Windy City. Today? What does the outfit control -- a few streets/blocks?

You have some good points but I disagree. The reason it's not like it used to be is because of attrition and Rico, not other gangs.

All these other "mobs" like Albanians and Russians always seem to be over hyped and not as big as the media makes them out to be.

And I would say they are the most powerful organization in the northeast. Apart from drugs, they are still on top with Unions, bookmaking, and loansharking. The mob and street gangs are for the most part, never involved with each other and street gangs are surely not rivaling them.

No OC group will ever reach the heights LCN did in the states in it's hey day. The current political/law enforcement climate will not allow it. Plus the mafia took advantage of a huge opportunity with prohibition which allowed them to plant the seeds and grow. Doubt we will ever see an opportunity like that today unless they made the internet illegal or something that everyone uses.

Exactly. The '20s and 30's were the perfect era for them to get a foothold in the United States. That's not going to happen again. I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for prohibition, they would have come and gone like a lot of the other old ethnic gangs. But prohibition gave them the money and influence to branch out and become a National conglomerate. And to their credit (well, as much credit as I'm comfortable giving to a bunch of criminals), they exploited those opportunities to the fullest.

its not dead. 3 yrs ago they rounded up 127 mob guys. you no any day there gonna do it again. 7 yrs ago they rounded up 70 gambinos who are probably stronger today. shit the biggest 1 before that was the patriarca 24 guys in 1990. see the pattern. its not going away. yeah a lot of members won't be 100 percent Italian but people still want to belong to something besides a elk club.

No one said it was dead or going away anytime soon. But no offense, pmac. I think you're a good guy. But you're not Italian American and you're not from New York where you can see what's happened to these neighborhoods and the recruiting pool. It will never be the same because, by and large, Italian Americans don't need it anymore.

Maybe up there in New England, where there's still a lot of White poverty. But not down here. Italian Americans in New York City are among the most upwardly mobile ethnic groups in the entire country, so why turn to crime?

And sure, there are people out there who are just plain old criminal minded. But circumstances are what drive most people to crime. And circumstances for Italian Americans are better than ever. And that's a good thing

I like how people say Drug's ruined the mafia but it seems depsite bans they've always been selling it and adapting with the times.

They've been dealing drugs since day one. Anyone who wants to argue that has seen "The Godfather" too many times.

Agree, but it is impossible to see the Godfather too many times.

Touché .

Goodfellas is like that as well.

While every LCN family has decline due to attrition (many of them eradicated all together), the NY families have been the least affected. Obviously because they were much larger in size to begin with and still have the biggest recruiting pool, relatively speaking. As said in the recent Wall Street Journal article on the mob said, while their membership numbers are lower than they were years ago, it's not significantly so. It seems the 5 families have been able to keep their numbers relatively stable over the last 20 years at least; with the Genovese and Gambinos around 200 each and the others around 100 or so each. Attrition is more readily seen in the handful of small remaining families outside New York, who have a much smaller recruiting pool. I expect the day will come when the LCN will only exist within the extended NY metropolitan area.

I agree ivy , it pisses me off wen people say the gambino's we're decimated because of john gottis rule . No they weren't they r in better shape now than they have been for years , they have there full administration whole and there numbers r pretty much the same as they have been since the 70s like u stated

The numbers aren't that far off but I would certainly say their power is much reduced compared to the 1970's. But none of the NY families have been decimated. We saw many predictions, even by law enforcement, of this back in the 1990's. 20 years later, with the families still there, they have become much more careful about making such rosy predictions. It's a very slow process.

That's pretty much what I think I said, Ivy. They're not going away anytime soon, but that attrition has taken its toll and that's what has weakened them more than anything, including law enforcement.

But why, Dom? Why does it piss you off? Why do you need the Gambinos to be strong to get to sleep at night?

If Jack the Ripper was still alive and terrorizing England, would you want him to be stronger than ever with your four daughters living there?

My point is, you shouldn't be rooting for criminals to succeed in a country that you don't live in. Now you know I like you and you can pm me anytime you want. But that's just the way I see it .