was frank lucas,nicky or frank matthews as powerful as the five families?

No

Nowhere near as powerful as any single NY family.

mad as hell for no reason

then people are comparing frank lucas/nick barnes to all five familes combined

Lucas was sort of a bullshitter, he was actually ratted out by some gambinos who were supplying him at the time. However he also obtained heroin from ike Atkinson. Nicky Barnes did obtain heroin from Madonna but it wasn't like he was paying some mob tax. It was simply an exchange of drugs for money, Barnes controlled the largest heroin market in the city if not on the east coast, he would buy it wholesale and then sell it in the stamped bags at retail level so his wealth was probably greater than a lot of people in new yorks criminal circle.Frank Matthews was probably the same if not wealthier just by how expansive his operation was. Now im not saying they were richer than carlo Gambino who had a lifetime to make his money, but I doubt he had the wealth that Matthews had at age 27.

compare frank matthews to the genovese

for instance salerno was a billionaire, wasn't he

Go look at the original question.



No, he wasn't. Some reports claimed he was worth $100 million but there's no way to verify that.

Here's my input: If your comparing the 5 families collectively to any of those enterprise in terms of rackets and wealth than no. Remember that those drug enterprises are like a spiderweb per say, remove the spider ( principal leader/s) than eventually it falls apart. The only comparison is in the drug trade.
You have to look at that time period exclusively of these enterprises than compare to individual crime family drug racket at that time. Frank Matthews enterprise was more extensive than each NY family network and total to an ESTIMATED $300 million before he fled. Then take each of the NY families individual drug racket estimates from 69-73 and you could compare them.
That's the only venture you could compare but everything else isn't. The only NYC syndicates the 5 families can be compared to is themselves.

Why? Because the vast majority of the claims in the documentary go completely unreferenced? That is generally the standard we use to assess truth.

I still see no reason to believe the person killed was a made man in any way.

@littlenicky


u just proved his point

1st you're mad at the mere notion that barnes/lucas might've controlled ny dope trade

now you're upset that somebody brought up the possibility of a madeguy getting killed

I never said anything vaguely related to the dope trade, moron. They could have been emperors for all I know.

I am still waiting for a citation that this was a made guy. As of now, nobody can even tell me what family he belong to.

Don't bother, Nicky. You're smarter than he is all day long and twice on Sundays. All he has in life is his Gu'mment check, a bad attitude, and the ability to rile up complete strangers on the Internet .

so each family still had more wealth cause of other rackets

This barnes testimony from the presidents commission on organised crime from back in 85. He goes into the relationship with the mafia.
some of the spelling messes up during the copy and pasting it. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/105010NCJRS.pdf


MR. OINTINO: Mr. Barnes, you have made
a statement that the supplier who was determined to be an informant named Carmine Pugliese, you decided to terminate this individual?

THE WITNESS: Yes. sir.
MR. DINTINO: Did the Council seek permission from anyone to terminate this individual, outside of your own council?

THE WITNESS: No, we didn't. We didn't require supervision from anyone.
We weren't subjected to any intimidation by any outside group_

MR. DINTINO: Do you know if he was connected to any of the seven Hafia families in New York City?
THE WITNESS: We didn't know. We werent
interested.

HR. DINTINO: Your main supplier Madonna. was he connected to any of the seven Mafia families in New York City?

THE WITNESS: I think so.

MR. DINTINO: What family?

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I have heard
him mention names, but I just don't remember any of them at this time.

MR. DINTINO: Did your Council have any inter- action with the seven .mafia families in New York City?
THE WITNESS: No sir
MR DINTINO:You worked completely independent
WITNESS:Yes, sir.

MR DINTINO:Now, in the Harlem area, even though you were involved in heroin, the other vice activities, such as prostitution, lottery. bookmaking, loan sharking, were they controlled by Black organized crime. or were they controlled by the Mafia families in the Harlem area?

THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, it was Black
controlled.
MR. DINTINO: In other words, you had complete control of the Harlem area. and that Blacks controlled
the vice activities in the Harlem area?

THE WITNESS: Y e s .
MR. DINTINO: Did you extend outside the Harlem area, particularly in narcotics trafficking?


THE WITNESS: Well. among the Council members with whom i was associated. one of our Council members operated in Brooklyn.. and another one operated in the bronx.

MR. DINTINO: One~ last time: Was there any interaction between you and the, Council and the Mafia families in New York City?

THE WITNESS: When you use the word "inter-raction"?
MR. DINTINO: Did you get permission from them to do anything?
THE WITNESS: No. we didn't need permission.

MR. DINTINO: Did they operate in Harlem in anyway?
THE WITNESS: No. not to my knowledge.
HR. OINTINO: Did they ever?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, at one time they did.
MR. DINTINO: Whai: year are you talking about?
THE WITNESS: I think there was a gradual
changing of hands beginning in the '60·s.

MR. OINTINO: Would you characterize that
the seven Mafia families, at this time. would be appre- hensive about operating in Harlem?
THE WITNESS: I don't know whether they would be apprehensive. I think that they would probably conclude that it wouldn't be a sound business decision t.o be:: involvud in Harlem because many of the Blacks in Harlem operate the area for themselves.

MH. DINTINO: Okay, sir, thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
I would like to ask you one question: Knowing
the background of the Mafia, how do you account for the fact that they didn't intimidate the Council or your operations and try to move in?

THE WITNESS: I think the best response I could offer would be that thay probably concluded that the fox isn't worth the chase, and they decided to stay out.
THE CHAIRMAN: Why wasn't tho fox worth the
chase?

THE WITNESS: I think that the obstacles would have been created because the Blacks felt that Harlem, in a sense, belonged to them, and I think that they wore willing to fight for the territory.
I think that the organized crime people
wanted to--they wanted to earn from the activities in
a territory, but I don't think that they wanted to go back to the violence of the Prohibition-type era, and I think that is what they would have been confronted with.

THE CHAIRMAN: In short, there would have been warfare?.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir·.

@scorses, great find!

Good point nicky. Ive taken smarter shits than this moolinyan cookcounty.

You'll have some extra time to sit on the throne. We don't use racial terms here.

some interesting stuff in that report, even back then you had a whole bunch of different nationalities running heroin, pakistanis, lebanese, nigerians. Its also noted by FBI agents and some of the witnesses that sicilians didn't really trust american mobsters that much.