Speculation from another thread got me wondering about an actual kidnapping that occurred, that being the Turk's (very brief) kidnapping of Tom.

What I wonder about is whether this had any effect on Tom and therefore any benefit for the Turk. When Tom tries to persuade Sonny to negociate with the Turk, I don't get the impression that his opinion has been at all swayed by the previous kidnapping. If I am correct, than the Turk has done nothing but participate in a very risky exercise in futility. If I am incorrect, what evidence am I overlooking?

Additionally, I am aware that the kidnapping took place with the Turk mistakenly believing that Vito had died. Even if he had died, would that have changed anything in regards to the kidnapping achieving a desired efect on Tom's mindset and ability to steer decisions a certain way that he would not have been inclined to do anyway?

I agree. Ostensibly, Sollozzo wants Tom to talk to to the Corleones and convince them to accommodate the drug deal and avoid a war. However, we know that Tom already favors the drug deal and recognizes just how vulnerable are the Corleones.

What I don't get is Sollozzo's line about "bad luck for you" if Tom doesn't make that deal.

I guess while the audience knows this is Tom's position, the Turk didn't, as, unlike Sonny, Tom kept his mouth shut during the big meeting.

My issue is that even not knowing this, how could the kidnapping have yielded results, even in a theoritical sense?

Puzo put it in his novel, so FFC probably felt compelled to film it. Also, it created some audience sympathy for Tom who for the first time was shown to be in danger.

As you point out, Tom was already inclined to accept Sol's deal--and Sol knew it. He also knew that "Sonny was hot for my deal," so he wanted Tom to rein in Sonny's temper and get him to accept the deal that he was hot for.

Keep in mind what Tom said after the kidnapping: "If your father dies, Sonny--you make the deal." I emphasized "if your father dies" because Tom was giving Sonny the same lawyerly advice he would have given if Sol hadn't snatched him.

BTW: It was the wrong advice. If Vito had died and Sonny made the deal, Clem and Tess, whose loyalty he would have needed, would have lost respect for Sonny because his gaffe at the Sol meeting had emboldened Sol to take his shot at Vito. The troops might even have believed that Sonny welcomed his father's demise so he could be on his own and get into drugs. Sonny would have needed to fight Sol even if Vito died, just to redeem himself.

I think that with Tom's support,Clemenza and Tessio might have been more amenable to a deal with Sol if Vito had died. Sonny was a hothead,but Tom seemed to have the respect of the top capos.
If Sonny and Tom would have stood united and made the case that it was good business and would make the Family a lot of money, I think they could have sold it.
The plus side for the Corleone's would be that they would only be supplying protection and finance,not handling actual sales. In addition, the bloodshed would cease,and the Corleone's would
retain a position of strength and power.Clem and Tessio of all people would understand that the killing of Vito was a business matter and the important thing was to get back to earning.I think that they would agree with Tom that if they didn't get into narcotics,the other Families would and the Corleone's future would be at risk.

In my opinion, Sollozzo's kidnapping of Tom served no more practical purpose than to guarantee him an opportunity to make his pitch to Tom, in a controlled environment, at a time when Sollozzo believed his own life to be in danger from Sonny (which it was). That was really the source of urgency for Sollozzo: to reach a deal and attain a sense of equilibrium quickly - before Sonny had a chance to strike back.

I don't view the kidnapping as Sollozzo's attempt to intimidate Tom into anything, as his only intention was to reason with Tom - not to threaten him. If you'll recall, he even made an attempt to put Tom at ease, by telling him: "I know you're not in the muscle end of the family Tom, so I don't want you to be scared."

Of course, when Vito survived the assassination attempt, that threw a wrench into Sollozzo's entire plan. Especially when it became clear that he had no Plan B prepared in the event of such a contingency. That really was the beginning of the end for The Turk.

I don't know about that. Vito's refusal was wrong or, at least, shortsighted. While he may have been right in the long term that drugs would destroy them, there was too much $$$ there for anyone to refuse, as Don Zaluchi pointed out at the Don's meeting. Drugs were coming, and Vito's attempt to bar the door against them only cost the Corleones a lot of money and blood before he capitulated.

In fact, Sonny making the deal may have cemented the loyalty of Tessio and Clemenza. If the concern was that Sonny was too much of a hothead, him putting good business over emotion may have calmed the Capos' concerns about his temperament. He could always avenge his father down the road.

Sol wanted Tom to get the message first hand because he thought that Sonny was now the head of the family, with Vito "dead." His threat that it would be "bad luck for you" if Sonny did not make the deal was a collective "you," meaning the corleone family.

Don't forget at this point in time it was Barzini behind Sol, not Tatt, as everyone believed. Barzini's ambition was to become the top Capo in New York, something that would have been easy with Vito oout of the way, thus in the truest sense Tatt and Sol and even Sol's drug deal were stalking horses for Barz.

Had Vito died, Sonny would have lashed out and ended up dead just as he did even though vito lived. Bottom line, Santino was a bad don, and being businessmen, Clemenza and Tessio would have ceded to Barz leaving Sonny dead, and Tom hanging out there with no muscle. Tom would have either disappeared to Vegas or somewhere or been killed hiself.

The novel states that Sonny was anxious for an operation of his own, "to get out from under his father's thumb." So I infer that Vito might have worried that Sonny being involved with the drug trade--and running it after Vito's death--the entire Corleone enterprise would be in jeopardy.

Tom told Sonny (in the film) that if Vito died, "we lose half our political strength" (or something to that effect). Why? Possibly because the police, politicians and judges who trusted Vito's judgment and wisdom wouldn't have trusted Sonny, whose reputation as a hothead surely would have reached them.

TB, I think you're right about people trusting Vito's judgement. Also, the novel makes the point that Vito's relationships with people were quite personal.

But I've never understood what it was about the drug deal that Sonny found attractive as he expressed it. The Corleone part in it would be political and legal protection. Such protection would be rather passive. Thus, it would not be an operation such as Sonny was seeking.

Good point, Oli. In the novel, after Puzo says Sonny wanted a big operation of his own, he then has Sonny saying that the family should stick strictly to finance and political protection, not to actual operations. So, what would Sonny's role be?

Oli and TB both good points, but I think the real problem with Sonny's being hot to get into the drug trade was his inability to think long term. He saw " a lot of money in that white powder," but he did not think through the consequences. Vito had to good sense to realize he would lose political and judicial support if he went into drugs the same way he went into women, gambling and labor unions, but Sonny did not. Of course what no one foresaw was the vacuum the drug trade created within the Sicilian mob and the takeover of the trade by Colombians and later Mexicans.

But did Vito really lose any support by going into the drug trade? We tend to take that as an article of faith, but is there any evidence it actually happened?

When Vito realized he couldn't hold off the drug trade any longer, he quickly agreed to provide the very protection he had just said that he wouldn't be able to provide for the drug trade. We're given no reason to think that he was unable to provide it.

In fact, while the judges and politicians on Vito's payroll refused to come to Connie's wedding, Michael - after years of involvement in the drug trade - had a United States Senator give a speech in his backyard.

W, Vito's only reason for providing his requested assistance with the drug trade was to secure Michael's safe return to the US. In lieu of that need, there is nothing to indicate that he would have still supplied the requested assistance.

I think the terms of the compromise were such that vito could give limited protection. As long as it was being sold in the
dark areas," while cops, poloticians and judges probably would not case, especially if it wasn't being sold to kids, or in the neighborhoods of their consitituents. And btw Oli there was an indication Vito would supply assistance. Baraini, when summarizing the compromise said that Corleone would provide protection "in the East."