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What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor #755253
12/24/13 04:32 AM
12/24/13 04:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 114
dgvc63 Offline OP
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dgvc63  Offline OP
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I remember someone telling me once "Kid if you get the right kind of pressure you can't trust anyone." The threat of death is definitely that kind of pressure for most as it was for Joe Valachi.

Think he was a rat or just a victim of Genovese's paranoia? or both?

I personally find Genovese to be one of the most detestable figures in the history of organized crime in the 20th century. None of his peers liked him or trusted him. If it would've been only the law after him I think Joe Valachi would've stayed silent. With no real chance to kill Vito I *think would've done the same.


"There are no friends in crime." ~ Muccanera

"Look everyone right in the eye and walk in like you own the joint." ~ Me

È negli occhi
Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: dgvc63] #755258
12/24/13 05:08 AM
12/24/13 05:08 AM
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Lou_Para Offline
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Genovese made a major error by putting Valachi's back to the wall. Instead of "keeping his enemies closer",Vito's ego demanded that he let Valachi spend his days in fear,waiting for the axe to fall,never knowing when or how the end would come.
Had Vito taken Valachi into his inner circle in prison,and treated him as a friend,he could have taken him out easily.
Instead,this nitwit gives Valachi a literal "kiss of death" in public.
Knowing that he was done for and desperate to survive,Valachi kills an innocent man,and puts the wheels in motion for his flipping.

Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: dgvc63] #755264
12/24/13 05:43 AM
12/24/13 05:43 AM
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dgvc63 Offline OP
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dgvc63  Offline OP
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Genovese was a wreck, he basically botched everything he was involved with as boss. I'd like to sit down to salsicc and peppers with Joey Cago.


"There are no friends in crime." ~ Muccanera

"Look everyone right in the eye and walk in like you own the joint." ~ Me

È negli occhi
Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: dgvc63] #755266
12/24/13 05:55 AM
12/24/13 05:55 AM
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Murder Ink
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Genovese took big part of Cosa Nostra down with him.Sometimes i wonder if Vito did the Valachi thing on purpose,you know as a revenge for the set up and all...story goes that Vito was a big machiavellian apart from being ruthless killer.But that just my thinking and what do i know?!


He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: dgvc63] #755280
12/24/13 09:50 AM
12/24/13 09:50 AM
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F_white Offline
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I think it both,Vito and Joe died in jail so what was his point of fliping.Did anyone get charged by Joe talking?

Last edited by F_white; 12/24/13 09:51 AM.

From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn.

Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: F_white] #755282
12/24/13 09:56 AM
12/24/13 09:56 AM
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Dwalin2011 Offline
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Originally Posted By: F_white
Did anyone get charged by Joe talking?

I read somewhere he testified in a Carmine Persico trial. But I am wondering too why didn't his testimony lead to big indictments, like when Buscetta talked in Sicily.

Last edited by Dwalin2011; 12/24/13 09:57 AM.

Willie Marfeo to Henry Tameleo:

1) "You people want a loaf of bread and you throw the crumbs back. Well, fuck you. I ain't closing down."

2) "Get out of here, old man. Go tell Raymond to go shit in his hat. We're not giving you anything."
Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: dgvc63] #755350
12/24/13 02:32 PM
12/24/13 02:32 PM
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Giacomo_Vacari Offline
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Genovese thought Valachi was a rat and instead of killing him quickly and putting him at ease. Vito toyed with Joe. After Joe killed the wrong man, he decided to seek protection with the FBI, and in return tell them everything he knew. I do not believe Valachi was an informant before he helped the feds. All indication point to Aguecis a Buffalo member being an informant and putting the thought of Valachi being an informer in Genovese head. Valachi was a soldier in Strollo crew, and Strollo made a lot of mistakes that cost a lot of members in the family to go to jail. To this Genovese believed Valachi was an informer to law enforcement.

Dwalin, the feds gave Valachi a lot of information that they could not use as they obtained them through the use of illegal wire taps and bugs. Valachi was a perfect mouth piece for the information.

Last edited by Giacomo_Vacari; 12/24/13 02:33 PM.

"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: F_white] #755357
12/24/13 02:49 PM
12/24/13 02:49 PM
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Lou_Para Offline
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Originally Posted By: F_white
I think it both,Vito and Joe died in jail so what was his point of fliping.Did anyone get charged by Joe talking?
Valachi's testimony was before Senator McClelland's investigative committee,and didn't result in any real prosecutions.
The hearings were held 6 or 7 years after Apalachin,so the public was still fascinated by the whole Mafia thing.

Valachi talked about the hierarchy,day to day activities,and general operations of the Mob. He was also the first to expose the making ceremony for new members.

Outside of providing some unusual entertainment for the TV crowd,and some political mileage for the Senator,Valachi didn't do a whole lot.

Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: Giacomo_Vacari] #755358
12/24/13 03:07 PM
12/24/13 03:07 PM
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Dwalin2011 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Dwalin, the feds gave Valachi a lot of information that they could not use as they obtained them through the use of illegal wire taps and bugs. Valachi was a perfect mouth piece for the information.

Speaking of illegal wiretaps, I remember they recorded enough in Patriarca's office to make him fry on the electric chair 100 times, yet it wasn't allowed because they didn't have a warrant for the bugs or something. But at the time Robert Kennedy was the general attorney, didn't he directly authorize Patriarca's wiretapping? Here
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/family_epics/providence_mob/3.html
it's said he hated Patriarca and said "we're going after that pig on the hill", so if for the general attorney it was ok, why were the tapes defined illegal? What else did they want, an authorization by Patriarca himself?


Willie Marfeo to Henry Tameleo:

1) "You people want a loaf of bread and you throw the crumbs back. Well, fuck you. I ain't closing down."

2) "Get out of here, old man. Go tell Raymond to go shit in his hat. We're not giving you anything."
Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: dgvc63] #755396
12/24/13 09:21 PM
12/24/13 09:21 PM
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mulberry Offline
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Valachi ratted because he faced the death penalty for killing a federal inmate. That was the point of him flipping.

They didn't use his testimony in trials because he was a sidewalk hood who didn't know have knowledge of many crimes personally except for his own little shakedowns.

As for Genovese doing it on purpose, I doubt that he knew Valachi would end up killing an innocent inmate, flipping and testifying in front of Congress. He would have needed a crystal ball to tell the future, unless you think Valachi was in on it and was the greatest actor in history.

Re: What's your take on Valachi ~ Rat or Survivor [Re: dgvc63] #755415
12/24/13 11:23 PM
12/24/13 11:23 PM
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LittleMan Offline
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Like some others here- I just read what I can, consider the sources.... and come to a conclusion.

I, personally, believe that Genovese's sources were correct and that Valachi was flirting with the FBI. Again, this is just my take, I don't have any sources that gives me a leg up on others here.


You shit-kicking, stinky, horse-manure-smelling motherfucker you! If you ever get out of line over there again, I'll smash your fucking head so hard you won't be able to get that cowboy hat on. You hear me? Fucking hick. -Nicky (Casino)

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