To a point.

Dellacroce COULD NOT have saved Gotti upon release of the Ruggerio tapes though.

Dellacoce ran his side to a point only. Paul was the boss and a disregard of the rules to such an end was well beyond Dellacroce's influence to save him.

Does anyone know the percentage that Carlo was receiving compared to the percentage that Paul demanded?

Is there a ballpark range accepted by the underlings in the different families, regarding the percentage to be kicked up.... or does each don decide?

For example, when Anthony Accetturo (NJ faction) got into a war with Vic Amuso, it was over the percentage. Tony Ducks only took a couple of percentage points from NJ's earnings. Amuso raised that to 50%, and the Jersey faction revolted. That's a huge swing in percentage to be kicked upstairs.

Good post HK. What was the genesis of the 2 factions? How did this come about and how were guys assigned or grouped into these factions?

I have read the 2 factions have been broadly described as (1) the blue collar / street faction (Dellacroce / Gotti) responsible for book making, loan sharking, extortion, drug dealing and murder; and (2) the white collar faction (Paul / Billotti / Jimmy Brown Faila etc) running wall street scams, controlling unions, bid rigging construction and more sophisticated crimes.

I think Dominick Montiglio talks about this some in the Capeci book, but I never understood the dynamics, other than Dellacroce was a stabilizing force and was ok sharing power with Paul.

These factions are confusing because it seems like there were guys in each faction that crossed over into the other faction. For example, Roy DeMeo was in the "white collar / Paul faction" but his crew was doing more drug dealing, auto theft and blue collar stuff.

Yeah. Badmouthing the boss certainly warrants some kind of punishment. Catellano was the boss and no matter what faction a violator belonged to, downgrading, disrespecting and humiliating the boss is always a big no-no. My point is though that under normal circumstances, if a Mafia Family is in harmony and not divided the way it was under Castellano and Dellacroce, Angelo Ruggiero would have been gone way before Castellano was hit.

I think first of all, forget about the "Blue collar faction v the White collar faction". The Gambinos were not divided that way. I have no idea why the split was categorized in this way in the first place because both the factions had members involved with both blue collar crimes and white collar crimes.

The Gambino spilt probably began after the Anastasia murder back in 1957. Some of the captains (Tommy Rava and John Robilotto notably) opposed the killing and thought it was unsanctioned. The Gambinos were in a disarray so the Commission was obliged to step in. They made Carlo Gambino the provisional boss provided he could keep the peace. There was probably a lot of negotiations between Gambino and the Rava/Robilotto faction and in order to keep the peace, Gambino gave the Rava/Robilotto faction a free rein.

Rava was killed not that long afterwards, but we don´t know why. His body has never been found. Robilotto was also killed close to a year after Rava. According to Magaddino wire tap transcripts, Robilotto was killed by his own men, his own faction. The killings left Dellacroce in charge of the "rebel faction". Later in the 1970s, when the Gambino Family made new captains, some Dellacroce undelings like Carmine Fatico and Andy Ruggiano was upped. Their crews, together with Mike Caiazza´s, summed up the "Dellacroce faction", or as Montiglio put it, the "Manhattan faction".

his biggest mistake was accepting the postition, when he was already a wealthy whitecollar businesssman and not a gangster, was made out of his loyalty and closenesss to carlo ..... carlo should of gave to Dellacrose hands down... he wanted a family member to take the spot though.

Good stuff Hairy..thanks.

Paul had 2 large scale dope dealers with him, Patsy Conte and John Gambino. Probably even more then that. I don't think being a heroin dealer is considered to be a white collar crime. Funny Paul never enforced the rules when it came to those 2 guys. No way Castellano could of claimed he didn't know what they were doing. He would of been one of the only people alive that didn't and you know he was getting some thick envelopes from his 2 favorite dope dealers.

And Roy DeMeo was heavily into drugs.

With Paul rumored to be greedy, I wonder what percentage Roy kept after kicking up to Gaggi and Paul?

The 'rule' was dont get caught.

A blind eye was turned, but there were consequences if caught.
Paul would've known, but they were never caught.

Devils in the details.

I understand what your saying Sonny...but I'm pretty sure that in 1980 Gambino was charged in Italy for heroin trafficking. For some reason the US Government refused to extradite him to italy...maybe because he was an American citizen but i'm not sure that was the reason. In absentia Gambino was found guilty and sentenced to 6 years.

When Gambino was released from prison in 2005 or 06 the italians again asked for him to be extradited to serve the time he was sentenced to in italy for that 1980(?) conviction but Gambino fought the extradition in court and won because the courts here ruled he already served time here for the same charges that covered his drug dealing from the 1970's until he was arrested in either the late 1980's or early 90's.

I guess Paul could of said either that he never knew about the case in italy or it was a kangaroo court.

But i just don't see anyway Paul could of said he never knew Gambino was a large scale international heroin dealer with a straight face.

Wasn't Paul already the acting boss while Carlo was getting on in years?

Carlo Gambino was never an American citizen. He came here illegally and successfully fought off attempts to deport him right up to the day he died. Supposedly ,a highly placed Government official received $25,000 a year for life in exchange for helping stay various deportation orders.

Taking the big seat was his biggest mistake he should have made Neil the street boss to keep the peace within the family.But he let the Gotti stuff get out of hand he should have Kill John immediately after Neil died.

Lou i was talking about Giovanni "John" Gambino.

I'm not positive but i think Carlo Gambino was supposed to be deported right up to the day he died. But his heart would always act up and with his army of lawyers got delay after delay. But the courts never ruled that Carlo couldn't be deported.

In the case of John Gambino they ruled he couldn't be sent back to italy to serve the sentence because he did the time here. He pled guilty to being a heroin dealer here and it covered him from the 1970's up to when he pled guilty in 1993 or 94. So the courts ruled that the deal covered the time period that Gambino had an italian conviction for.

Of course his brother Rosario wasn't as fortunate. He was deported right after he finished his sentence here and then went directly to an italian prison to serve his sentence for a 1980's conviction in italy. But Rosario wasn't an american citizen so he was deported not extradited.

I think the key thing about the split is that it prevented castellano from making a move on dellacroce's man gotti until he had proof in the form of ruggerio's wiretap tapes.
If it weren't for the split with dellacroce commanding, basically, his own family then castellano probably would have had gotti's people hit a lot sooner and with a lot less proof. The presence of dellacroce made the situation a lot more political. That's why castellano kept asking for the tapes and dellacroce would then tell gotti that he can't keep stalling him and it's going to be bad when he does get them

DeMeo got away with a lot, nino never really had any control over him. It took half a year and a dead vaccuum salesman before nino finally got roy to kill his man chris for killing those cubans.

As far as gotti is concerned, I don't think killing roy mattered much because while he had the name, the gambino's still had the gemini twins running that crew and they were just as dangerous as roy was.

Why has everyone (LE, historians) accepted that Dellacroce was a major roadblock to Castellano ordering the murders of Gotti and part of his crew?

Dellacroce was always portrayed as old school, someone who respected the chain of command. And he understood that following orders from superiors was integral to the continued success of LCN.

With that in mind....couldn't Paul have ordered Gotti's murder and Neil would have accepted it? I figure Neil would have done the exact same thing, if another crew made the same mistakes as in the Gotti crew. Paul could have even given the contract to Neil....after all, DeMeo was given the job to whack Rosenberg.

You make some really good points, although nobody on this forum will ever know what went through Castellano's mind, as I am going to play devil's advocate:

1. Reclusive...Many bosses didn't like to go out in public or be seen with other wiseguys, as Big Paul "only" felt completely safe at home.

2. Petty Details- Paul Castellano as boss was dealing with a family full of criminals who would steal, rob or sell drugs at the drop of a hat, so micromanaging your "company" is the style of many mafia bosses and/or CEO's of big companies, which is what Paul Castellano thought of himself.

3. Deals with other families- Many bosses dealt with other families, it's called maximizing your criminal portfolio. If it meant more money in Paul's pocket, why not "merge or acquire" other business interests. Do you think the CEO of companies such as Microsoft, Google, AT&T, IBM and Intel never merged or had relationships with their competitiors? I know for a fact that IBM and AT&T have layed off tens of thousands of employees which hurt them financially, it happens.

4. Mob Protocol? Where in the rule books does it say you can't fuck your Columbian maid? He never fucked her in front of his wife, he "flirted" with her. His wife knew what he was up to and she chose to stay and benefit from his financial position.

5. Neil's Wake- No violation "at all" of mob protocol. Is there an unwritten rule that a boss has to show up at a wake? Paul was under indictment for RICO charges in the commission case, so being at the wake of his underboss in front of every FBI camera would have been a disaster for the upcoming court case. No matter how it looked to the underlings, the boss is the boss is the boss.

6. The Tapes- Every other boss in the commission case had things to say about other bosses, no doubt. Especially when these guys were on trial for their life. Remember, these guys are criminals, that's all they know is how to backstab others to line their own pockets.

7. Every boss is greedy, they didn't make it to the top without being greedy and ambitious.

At the end of the day, Gotti was a low life punk who ascended to the top (which I give him credit for), but he was also the downfall to American LCN...so in the end, Paul was much better for the longevity of the American Mafia than Gotti.

JCB, I agree with many of your points. The rationalization given for Paul's murder seems to be widely accepted. However, bosses have protection, which is supposed to ensure self preservation.

I never considered having a goomah on the side was only permissible under certain conditions. Maids weren't off limits, as far as I know. The penile stuff was embarrassing for Paul when made public, but it was nothing that could get a boss whacked.

What were these deals with other families that angered the Gambino soldiers so much? How badly did it hurt them? And I agree that families shared in major deals- gasoline tax, windows, etc...

As far as the wake....virtually no mobsters went to Albert Anastasia's funeral. Nobody was expecting Carlo to get clipped for skipping it.

So Paul had capos meet him at one location. Wasn't that a Gambino tradition? Carlo had people meet up with him at his home, just like Castellano- probably where Paul learned it from. Did people complain about going to Carlo's home, also? And Gotti had underlings meet him at his social club.

Tony Ducks wasn't whacked when the FBI bugged his Jaguar. Why would Castellano get blamed for agents bugging the White House, especially when it was Ruggiero's fault?

I believe that the main reason for discontent was the increased tribute. But I don't know what the increase was and if it was out of line compared to other dons. Ultimately, it was Quack Quack's tapes that brought the murder of Paul.

Well stated LittleMan...I will go out on a limb and say that John Gotti was a charming, charismatic personality and he had some of the "greatest" leadership qualities that a man could possess. If he were running a fortune 500 company, he would have probably been a great business leader and most importantly, he had the uncanny ability to get others to believe in him, his philosophy and his style. I believe that because of all of his great attributes and with Neil's passing, all the other guys were on board with him and his ideology...IMO, he definitely got the ball rolling.

Some things to point out:

It wasn't so much that Paul had a woman on the side, it was that he did it in the same home as his wife that was considered extremely disrespectful.

Paul also sided with Chin and the Genoveses over his own family on certain construction matters which was viewed with disdain.

As far as wakes are concerned... the Anastasia situation and the Dellacroce situation are two entirely different animals. Anastasia was killed from within, Dellacroce died by natural causes.

The difference between meeting at Paul or Carlo's house and meeting at the social club was that the former were private residences and the latter was a public place, and one known to be under constant surveillance at that.

The reasons Paul was killed have traditionally been given for the following reasons:

1. He was seen by many as more of a businessman instead of a gangster. He didn't earn his way into family any more than he had to earn his relationship with Gambino. He was viewed as undeserving of the title of "boss" while someone like Neil, who had infinitely more knowledge of the streets, was seen as disrespected. This may not have been enough to kill Paul alone, but...

2. Gotti's crew dealing drugs and the Ruggiero tapes became a major source of contention as John feared that their revelation would bring about the demise of himself and Ruggiero. Once Neil died, he lost his buffer and feared that Paul would either kill or demote him, with obviously neither of them being an acceptable option. Additionally, Paul was suggesting a leadership change which was unacceptable to John in addition to the other co-conspirators. He was also seen as someone who could potentially be turned, as his posh lifestyle had softened him enough that he might not be able to stand a significant jail sentence. Not attending Neil's wake was the final, unnecessary nail in Paul's coffin.

These sort of statements annoy me.

If he were running a Fortune 500 company, the fucking company would go bust.

People mistake charisma for intelligence. John was charming but to put it mildly, a fucking moron.

His staples in crime were THE most rudimentary. Gambling and loan. John was hardly into unions, pump n dump or anything remotely sophisticated.

John was the high school quarterback, popular but you wouldn't have him as your accountant, let a lone the CEO of a major company.

Has this been a myth, even when caught? How many capos/button men were whacked for being caught? I'm talking about when they were in good standing and not considered a threat to sing.

Many dons and acting dons have been well publicized as being drug men, it must have been known throughout the ranks. I'm sure you all know the following, but let me post it as a point of reference.

Gambinos: The Gotti's and Sammy the Bull rose to the top on the strength of drug dealing. Gene got sent away- obviously, he was never whacked.

Bonanno: Carmine Galante went to jail over drug trafficking. And when he came out, he was looking to take over the rackets....he didn't act as if he was going to be whacked or demoted based on his drug conviction.

Genovese: Vito ran the family from behind bars, and seemingly had no shame for being convicted for drugs.

Lucchese: Paulie Vario supposedly had a deal and die rule- as per Henry. But Tony Ducks passed him over for the top spot in favor for two known drug men- Vic and Gas.

I was speaking about his ability to lead, not his IQ or sophistication. No doubt he was a street guy, but he wasn't completely stupid either. I'm sure an education and some speech lessons could have made him a bit more polished.

Even guys, like Meyer Lansky, ran rackets with the threat of death for non compliance. Remove the violence and the threat of violence....and these mobsters would be ineffective in both the underworld and the real world.

Otherwise, some of these high school drop outs might have been excelled with high level jobs in real world companies. Take away the illegal advantages the would depend upon, and they would have run the companies into the ground due to incompetence- or because of a planned bust out.

Agree to disagree...I see what you're saying and there are always two sides of an argument, but "most" of those guys had goomah's on the side, I mean Chin even carried an entire family with children with his mistress. If Paul sided with Chin on Construction rackets, he probably saw a lot of opportunity to make money, which in all fairness, the Genovese Family controlled construction...so I look at that as a good move. As far as the wake, he was under indictment and had a court hearing scheduled for a "media frenzy" topic on organized crime, why be visible at a gangster's wake when the entire world is watching you? It was the final nail in the coffin in Gotti's eyes. Paul looked at himself as a businessman, he was a racketeer. Plus, he had many legitimate businesses in NYC and his goal was to set his family up financially, not bet 25 dimes on a football game like Gotti.

Undeserving as boss? LOL...That's the way Carlo wanted it, who is in a position to question what Carlo wanted for the future? NOBODY! Carlo made most of those guys...they didn't make him and Carlo made no secret that he wanted his family run by blood. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't his son Thomas "handed" the entire garment district rackets? What did Thomas do to deserve it? Blood is thicker than water and that was obvious when Gambino married his first cousin...but that's the way the old timers did things.

Name me one perfect boss...all bosses have made mistakes with personnel going back to the beginning of time. The Gambino Family was much better off with Castellano than with anybody with the last name Gotti. We could sit here and dissect every boss's decision across the board from Accardo, Giancana, Gambino, Castellano, Gigante, Bufalino, Bruno, DeCalvacante, Patriarca etc...You make the best decision at the time for the particular situation you are faced with...If hindsight was 20/20, everybody on this forum would have done something in their life a little differently.

I never said that they were justifiable decisions, only that they were the ones that Gotti used to justify his actions.

I agree. i think people have gotten the wrong impression of Big Paul. Sure he was a white collar mobster AND he wasnt a street guy BUT he was still a nasty son of a bitch. he would order murders in a second if someone pissed him off. remember he ordered one muredr because the guy said he looked like Frank perdue. He also ordered 10 times the amount of murders gotti ever did to be honest

Not to prepare for Gotti.

He couldn't understand the ambition Gotti carried on. Plus, he had not a loyal muscle power behind. He could've used Roy DeMeo as a muscleman against Gotti and whole his crew.

Another was keeping Dellacroce as underboss. Dellacroce might hadn't moved on him but even though, Gotti and whole the rebels against Big Paul grew stronger under Neil's wings.

Gotti was pretty scared of Big Paul. He only became more confident when Gravano and decicco decided to help him. without those 2 he would have been dead at some point

To clarify, the 'deals with other families' that made the made men unhappy was related to the Genovese but was a separate ordeal. Frank Piccolo was killed on Castellano's orders to keep Chin happy. Sold down the river by Paul. Piccolo was a caporegime. Obviously, the family felt betrayed and horrified.