Gotti couldnt flip...he was the boss. He thumbed his nose at the fbi so they wanted him locked up forever

Not being a rat is something nobody can take from you, they can take your freedom, your life, your money, but you can be put in the ground as a man, my brother kept silent on a death penalty case, refused to testify in his own defense for fear of his words hurting others just how it is where we are from, better off dead tnen a rat, if you have hot paper work here, you will get killed x people pass out paper work at bather shops, and the person is gone in a week.

john would never have flipped he believed in that life

the feds would not have cut a deal with gotti. in fact both bruce mouw and George Gabriel have stated that gravano was lucky to get the opportunity to flip. They already had a lock on that case with the tapes, gravano was only brought along as window dressing ,to corobarate it. It was debated weather to let him flip. No way they offer gotti the same shot...they want to see him rot.
And for all his other flaws, John Gotti stood tall and took his time. That was just in him...its who he was. you cant wipe away 50 years of indoctrinating without giving away who you are. You have to respect that.

No, gotti never would have flipped in a million years but make no mistake about it, the feds would have welcomed gotti to team america with open arms. In fact, that would of been the ultimate badge to carry, having gotti flip. Are you guys kidding ????
I dont care what monday morning quarterback shit Briuce meow is espousing , he woukd of loved for that to happen. It also would have sent the most powerful message ever. Gotti was the face of the mafia and to a certain extent, he still is.

Surely Mouw is the quarterback and we are the monday morning quarterbacks?

Would they welcome him with open arms though?

It would be a logistical nightmare. You have the son, the brothers, a basket case daughter, a basket case wife, in-laws.....

When you rat it's a package.

Can you imagine the FBI relocating Gotti in podunktown and entrusting him on the stand in other mob cases?

Somewhere you have to draw the line. They cannot accept just anyone as rats, surely?

Give one thing to Gotti he took his medicine. Can't say the same about his son.

all the gottis are stand up apart from arguably junior but then gain he did go through 4 rico trials and if he wanted to he could have hurt alot of guys that proffer session did not give up many guys feds did not deal with him because they knew he was holding back info they wanted junior on stand and he would not do that

richie senior and richie junior peter, gene even vinny who is a joke are doing/did there time

though the gottis are not the smartest guys they are stand up

agree

A man't can't be half a rat any more than a woman can be a little pregnant. A rat is a rat is a rat. And God only knows if there's more to those proffers than the Government ALLOWED Anastasia and Alite to print. Because, make no mistake about it, the Feds can shut a book down at their own will. First Amendment be damned.

true that is a good point its why i said it an arguable if he is a rat i personally think he is but not as bad as the rest

the other gottis are stand up he is the odd one out

Gotti wasn't a rat but his mouth (on the tapes) did just as much damage as Gravano's in court.

The rat shit is crazy!!! The man for all his peckerhead faults lived, breathed, and died Cosa Nostra.. Also If anything in Jr book is true about the way Gotti died he was one tough fuck!! Man sat in a 10 ft cell for 23 hours a day for 10 years so calling him a rat is ridiculous!! I get the hate for what he was as a boss but a rat? No

IMO, A lot of made guys who have been arrested over the years have been because of wiretaps and bugs. The Government place these bugs virtually anywhere, in cars, Social clubs, bedrooms, kitchens, offices, restaurants, and computers and of course, phones. They have to communicate somehow. Maybe they should issue etch a sketckes or teach them sign language. But once the Feds get a whiff of that, I am sure they will find a way to monitor them. Gotti even went the extra yard by having meetings in the apartment of a widow of a former wiseguy's apartment above the Ravenite. He took precautions it was just the Feds got lucky and beat him. That's the life and the game. Like the saying from one of my favorite movies, The Big Lebowski, "sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you" You can call Gotti an egotistical maniac, but he was no rat or would never entertain becoming one.He lived this shit.

Thats the way it's suppose to be. There are hundreds of guys that made the choice to stand up.

The real question is why would L/E let guys rat" and just put the same person" on the street that did the ratting.

Let out one killer just to put a killer with a hard on from the feds back on the street.

The whole thing is broke ,if you want to put them away do the work and don't let the fucking rat do the work for you ,he was just putting a bullet in someones head the week before.

Im sorry but the gotti love is making me puke...all because he didnt rat. Truthfully he was the boss so there was nobody to rat on. The guy was a piece of shit and a moron

no one is saying john was a good boss he was a standup guy as was all of his brothers and richie junior only junior is arguably not a stand up guy its not "gotti love" its fact

your right he is a piece of shit but so are all of these guys

even if john had been a soldier he would have never flipped e was LCN to the end this whole topic is ridiculous



"he was a boss so there was nobody to rat on"

did i hear that right a boss can give the entire organization up plus other familys not saying the feds would deal with gotti but they have dealt with other bosses joey massimo ralph natale acting bosses jimmy frantino Al D`arco and former bosses like Angelo Lonardo


the feds would and will deal with a mob boss but just not john gotti not that it matters he would never have flipped

i know all about jimmy the weasel and massino so you dont have to tell me man

disagree with PB (you've email too my friend). A rat ain't a rat is a rat.

Compare Valenti to Junior to Chiodo.

They the same?

Valenti sold his SON down the river with ZERO charges facing for a few COIN. Junior rolled the dice facing life for the FOURTH time after having one fucking proffer. Chiodo rolled because he had served with loyalty and received 15 9mm in his fat ass and his SISTER was hit as a thank you.

A rat is a rat is a rat?

Bullshit.

(Love ya PB. Check your mail)

I read it, Sonny. And I WILL get back to you by tomorrow. There's just too much to write at this hour. But a rat is a rat is a rat .

Yet I already conceded that both George Barone and Fish Cafaro both could have hurt A LOT more guys, but didn't. So I guess I can agree that there are different DEGREES of ratting. But there's still no such thing as half a rat.

Love ya old son.

And I do understand what you're saying. Maybe an Italian from the Bronx gets it right for once over a whitebread Australian every once in a while

To me it's even more than that;
Like what about all the dry snitching, does that count?
Using the police to get rid of your enemies, is that "better" than ratting?
The way I see it, the difference between a boss and a soldier is that soldiers understand the rules. Soldiers respect the rules, live by the rules, die by the rules. Create their entire self image designed around their relationship to these rules. Bosses, understand that, THERE ARE NO RULES, or more to the point, these rules are open to interpretation....
Here's two examples from my own family; I got a cousin, killed his wife, in a car, in front of his kids. Okay, then got his kids mother(she wasn't the wife) to help him get rid of the body. He trust one of my aunts with his money, while he's on the run. She , I guess decides to keep the money, and proceeds to allow the FEDS to tap her phone. Long story short, the Feds grab baby momma, threaten her with life or the death penalty or who knows what, she sings. Cousin gets arrested and he is lock stock and barrel guilty, they offer a plea, 20 years. Do you believe the guy rolled the dice and took it to trial. Got a woman judge, baaaaad, at the sentencing she asked something like," Do you want me to decide your death?". Gave him 80 years I think, his brother said and I quote " The motherfucker shoulda took tha 20 years!!!"
Now he was real, but to me he was dumb....
Second example, another cousin, younger, bully, vicious guy. Lots of enemies, but widely feared, (went to jail at 14 for unloading at the police, used to torture cats as a kid, nutty fuckin guy, incidentally was my favorite cousin, go figure..) is sitting in his car, two gangbangers see him, and because he was so feared these guys make a BET! That one of em wont walk up,to him and shoot him. So, you know what, the guy walks up to him and shoots him in the neck, side, and ass, leaves the guy crippled. This is over a bet, and you know what he does, my cousin? He testifies," rats" I guess, but I guess he felt like, as a street guy, that was his only recourse for retaliation, because like I said, this was a tough fuckin guy, but a rat is a rat I guess..
For me growing up, this shit was never that cut and dry simple; I couldn't understand why my cousin wouldn't take the plea, but I know him not taking the plea enabled him to still wield power in prison, (he had a block he called shots over), whereas the other cousin got his revenge I guess, but at the expense of all his standing in the community.
So I think someone hit it on the head when they mentioned image and ego, what did Michael say in godfather, my father considers himself the equal of a senator or whatever....
I'm sorry for going a little off topic, I just had to explain myself a little... These are questions I kinda been asking myself my whole life...

very true, without tapes no gravano

Sammy wasn't even window dressing. They had them BOTH dead to rights on the Cirelli tapes. The fucking Feds freed a serial killer just to embarrass Gotti. That's why you don't tug on Superman's cape. Only Frankie Loc gets my sympathy. He was a reasonable guy who wouldn't hurt you unless you were really begging for it. Life in prison for sitting on a fucking couch while another guy's mouth put you there.

Have read in Scott Burnstein's book about Detroit that Joe Catalanotte has been gathering information about drug traffickers for some time, and snitched on the French ones without implicating the Detroit mafia. For some reason, he is called by some "a true mafioso". Why, doesn't ratting on foreign allies still count as ratting, even if he spared mafia made members from his family?

you are sobering right about frank l.,, they wanted gravano as you said, plus he could hammer other guys in different crews and families. which he did..then he came back to throw shit in the Gs face by still being a criminal.. what a disaster he was for everyone! including his blood family

Thanks, Bronx. You know we came from across the street. But pre-Gotti it wasn't that big a deal. Tore grew up in Westchester. But he and I are the exact same age and he was always in the neighborhood with his Uncle Joe. His Father didn't leave Morris Park all that much. But his uncle had the club by the zoo. Remember?

didn't tore have a club off arthur

Yeah, that was later, though. That place was originally Vinny A's. Then Tore got it around the time Vinny got his own crew. I'm talking about the late '70s. We were barely out of high school. Joey Loc operated out of the same spot for at least twenty years. That kinda run just isn't possible anymore.

yeah the only club Tore should have now is a nine iron..lol

Spot-on. But very few people on the boards want to believe it. Charlie from RD. He's a real good kid. Grew up around Crescent. He's in his 30's. Just old enough to remember the tail end of the Arthur Avenue that we knew. Yourself. A few other locals. But unless the Feebs take his name off their charts, some people refuse to believe it. And the truth is, Tore was never the same after the thing with the restaurant guy's son in '93. That really had an effect on the way he looked at the life.

He didn't even fucking realize what he set in motion. If he had it to do over, the other kid would still be alive and living in a nice suburb like the rest of his family. THAT was tragic. Because that kid was an innocent, no matter who his father is.