I was always under the impression (btw im not a Chicago guy by any means) that Accardo was always the top guy after Ricca's reign was over. But the new poster "Chicago"(who seems like he really knows his shit about the outfits history says Giancana was the top guy. So who was it, Accardo or Giancana?? Any opinions??

To understand Chicago, one must understand that the power was based upon Street Crews, which were like small to moderate sized families.

Ricca was the Boss of the West Side Crew around the First Ward which controlled Chicago and BOSS of the entire Outfit. Within his CREW was his protégé Sam Giancana & Sam Battaglia. They were both Capos. Sam Giancana had the West Side and Sam Battaglia had the West Suburbs.

Tony Accardo was Boss of the Grand Ave Crew & UNDERBOSS of the entire Outfit. Within his Crew was a Capo named Jackie Cerone.

In 1957, Ricca, at the age of 60, stepped back and Giancana became the Boss of the West Side Crew and Top Boss of the Outfit at the age of 49. The crew changed it's name to be known as the Taylor St. Crew. Fiore Bucciere moved up and became the other Capo. Ricca was now the Semi-Retired Senior Advisor.

Also, in 1957, Accardo stepped down and Semi-Retired with Ricca at the age of 51 and became the other Senior Advisor. Cerone became the Boss of the Grand Ave Crew which moved out further west and became known as the Elmwood Park Crew.

HERE COMES THE BIG ARGUEMENT THAT TOOK PLACE WITHIN THE OUTFIT:

Accardo wanted his man Cerone to be the UNDERBOSS of the entire Outfit and be partnered with Giancana the way Accardo was partnered with Ricca.

Giancana refused and there was really nothing Accardo could do about it.

When Giancana left Chicago in 1966, Sam Battaglia became the Boss of Taylor St. and the Top Boss of the Outfit. Phil Alderisio moved up and then became the other Capo. After Battaglia went to jail and died shortly thereafter, Alderisio then became the Boss of Taylor St and the Top Boss of the Outfit.

After Alderisio went to jail, Bucciere was too sick to take over and a lot of the Taylor St. men were dead and a couple were in jail like Willie Daddano.

Then came the big CHANGING OF THE GUARD. Around 1969 or 1970, Auippa and the Cicero Crew became partnered with Elmwood Park and THEY took over the Outfit. The Taylor St Crew was all but disbanded and the remaining men were either direct with Auippa and Cerone or they were now under Turk Torello who took Bucciere's place and became Boss of what became known as the 26th St Crew.
Lombardo became Boss of another Crew which became known as the Grand Ave Crew because Lombardo lived in Little Italy on Grand and Ogden.

Accardo's greatest power came AFTER the CHANGING OF THE GUARD.
Ricca died in 1972. After Ricca died, The Outfit killed a few left over Taylor St. men who didn't FIT IN properly.
The first to go was Sammy DeStefano. 1973
The second to go was Chuckie Nicoletti 1977
The third to go was Chuckie English 1985


Do you get the picture? It was based upon Street Crew Power, not individual power per se.

Technically, Chicago kind of(not totally) put me in my place on that in my thread about Accardo being my favorite mobster. I think it's one of those things where you can make your own assumption but Giancana was mentored in by Paul Ricca who shared power with Accardo even while Ricca was in prison. Giancana I would say for a period of time was the big guy on top with Accardo right next to him as his advisor. Although I believe Accardo still signed off on mostly everything Giancana did as Boss. In the end Giancana didn't want to share, even after being tossed to Mexico for 3 years he still had an enormous amount of power and had alot of business ventures outside the U.S.. One being casinos in Israel that he profited on alone without any sharing with the Outfit. Giancana was certainly a boss on his own right, but I firmly believe that alot of guys didn't answer totally to him and always kept their loyalty with The Big Tuna. If I was Accardo I would have been happy to sit in the back seat while Mr. Flashy Giancana drove the car.

I think an even more interesting debate would be who clipped Giancana? CIA or Accardo?

I added some more to my posting above.

The Outfit killed Giancana and the other 3 men I mentioned, one of whom was my father.

If giancana was so powerful, why was accardo able to banish him to mexico???

You obviously put my Outfit knowledge to shame Chicago. I feel like I could definitely learn a thing or two from you my friend. Very interesting to hear that your old man was either Mad Sam, Nicoletti or English. I also have some connection. I grew up with alot of the children of Rockford Crew guys. Saladinos, Frisella, Galluzzos, and Fiorenzas.

Chicago or anyone that knows, where was Spilotro the day Giancana was killed? I remember reading that some crooked police chief thought it was Tony. He said Spilotro lived in the neighborhood and knew how to sneak over to Sam's place without being seen. Is that all bullshit or is it possible? Where was Tony that day? Vegas?

What exactly does it take to be made around here? I see the big fella just got straightened out. How does one earn his button in this GBB?

Interesting.

@logomassini: you have to be a good earner, and don't forget to slide the boss something extra for his birthday

I believe the guy you're talking about may be Michael Corbitt (sp). He had some other theories about who killed Giancana, and Tony Spilotro was someone he mentioned. There were others.

I have no idea relative to Spilotro's whereabouts the night Giancana was killed. The most common theory I've heard is that Dominic "Butch" Blasi was the person responsible for killing Sam Giancana. No one was ever charged. Blasi was one of Giancana's closet friends. If you read the FBI files, Giancana once offered to lend Blasi something like $120- 130,000 to purchase some land. Blasi turned him down because he said the IRS would be all over him about where he got the money. Who knows what eventually happened? Maybe they "worked something out." Two points here: 1. Giancana's willingness to help one of his men, and 2. Some of your best friends will "do you in."

CHICAGO will probably have some additional information.

There are several theories about who knocked down Giancana. Blasi is probably the most likely as Giancana knew him and would have allowed him in the house and was most likely to turn his back to him. That's how they ALWAYS get you...through people you know and trust..There's another train of thought that has Turk Torello and Johnny DiFronzo as the killers and yes, there's Corbitt's statement about Spilotro. Keep in mind the Oak Park Police and probably even the FBI were sitting on Giancana's house in Oak Park that night. I don't buy Spilotro and I don't buy Turk/Johnny either. There was no shootout that night, which there would have been had Spilotro, Turk or Johnny came knocking at Mooney's door lol it stands to reason Mooney would have known why they were there..:) Blasi was trusted by Mooney that's why he got Mooney's ticket. Regardless of WHO killed Giancana, it's obvious it was ordered by Aiuppa/Cerone. Probably the greatest myth perpetrated by Bill Roemer in his love affair with Accardo is that Accardo was the BOSS OF BOSSES, he NEVER WAS....

Can someobe explain to me why accardo was' nt the bos of bosses? And did he step aside or was he forced out? Please explain

Gary, yes thats the guy. I always heard Blasi's name mentioned as most likely the hitter so i remember i was kind of surprised by his comments about Spilotro. Being that he was a police chief i thought maybe he knew something.

Thanks guys.

Giananca's high profile lifestyle and the loss of some of his loyal backers, put him at risk. His exile was self-imposed, but certainly Ricca and probably Accardo warned him of the dangers of remaining in Chicago at this time.

Giancana was tough and had a difficult time adjusting to change (IMO). He wanted to conduct business the old-fashioned way: corruption, extortion or murder. Times were changing in Chicago and it was necessary for The Outfit to adjust and modify their ways to allow for these changes. I believe Giancana had a very difficult time adjusting. Plus, he was very stubborn; it was his way, the highway or the grave. A real gangster for sure.

more like an egotistical idiot

they told him to get off the bullshit in the mid 60s and he didn't

then he comes back 10 yrs later on the same bullshit and got himself popped

But giancana said himself he was being forced out of chicago so it was' nt self imposed, if ur the top boss how can u get kicked out of ur own city? And its been reported that accardo was mad at him for not sending money back to chicago while he was in mexico, I need more evidence if u want to say giancana was the top boss instead of accardo, now if u want to say o'brien had a higher ranking than accardo, I'm open to it, but not giancana

A lot of informed people feel that Accardo was never even the boss, just kind of an overseer.

I personally really have no idea; the books of course all have him as the top guy, mostly, in some respect, though there are people who know far more than me who insist he never was.

I do think, though, that people make too much about the heirarchy. Gus Russo's book, while flawed in some respects, is probably the best treatise on the subject, and after reading that I was left with the impression that the Outfit at its peak probably didn't engage in a lot of the rather silly ceremony that later came to be associated with LCN.

In that book it was really more that a few extremely cunning, opportunistic career criminals--mainly Humphries, Ricca, Giancana and Accardo--were at the head of an astoundingly effective money making criminal enterprise.

By inference it seemed like it was run loosely by consensus of the above.

I mean think about it, it's unlikely that Tony Accardo ever once referred to himself as an "underboss," or a "consigliere" or any other ridiculous title in his entire life; I imagine he would have found the idea hysterical.

What do you get, a jacket with your title in it?

Thebigfella, Who told you Giancana was ORDERED to step down? Roemer? STOP saying it.
1) Giancana wasn't ordered to do anything. It was done by a consensus of Ricca, Giancana & Accardo.
2) You have the wrong idea when you think one person always made the final decisions.
3) jonnynonos has more the right idea. Not you.
4) Tony Spilotro had nothing to do with killing Giancana.
5) Dominic Blasi set up Mooney.
6) Dominic Blasi was ordered to do it by Auippa/Cerone.
7) Cook County, stop saying Giancana was an idiot. you don't know what you're talking about. Giancana was killed in 1975 because Auippa & Cerone FEARED HIM. THEY DIDN'T WANT HIM TO TRY AND MAKE A COMEBACK. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HE DID 9 YEARS AGO.

@chicago: are u saying giancana wanted to go to mexico?

I gotta say Chicago you r the best poster ever on the Chi outfit on GBB.Im not from the US but ive always belived in the things you just said and confirmed everything.Bout the Giancana murder...Chuck G. in his book says that the CIA was involved?Any truth in that?thanx again

Who's the Boss? Underboss? Explain earning in the context of here.

Johnny - That's a very good post. Throw in a few more names like Gus Alex, and others at different times, and you have a very good description of what I've read and been told.

There are lots of stories about specifics relative to The Outfit, but paragraphs 3,4,5 and 6 of your post, pretty well sums up how I understand they operated. I also believe that by including others in the decision- making process is what made The Outfit so strong.

Results were important, not titles.

Thanks for the very good analysis. Well stated.

I need a jacket !!!

Accardo was a boss before Giancana. This isn't from Roemer, this is from many different informants including members of other Families, as well as recorded conversations. Accardo sat on the Commission before Giancana did and was recorded explaining protocol to Giancana when he was a new boss. Before Accardo was the boss Ricca was and he sat on the Commission, the difference is that while Ricca was the boss Lefty Campagna was considered the top Outfit boss. Accardo became acting boss while Ricca and Campagna were in prison, then Ricca retired and became an adviser, and remained an adviser until he died in 1972.

In 1956/57 Accardo retired as day-to-day boss and became an adviser like Ricca, but Ricca had seniority. Giancana was the day-to-day boss until he retired to Mexico in 1966. No one considered Giancana an idiot. He was respected by all Outfit guys but not everyone liked him. Aiuppa and Cerone didn't. When Giancana returned I don't think he tried to become boss again. His main backer and protector was Ricca, and all the Taylor Street killings happened after Ricca died. Other killings include Richard Cain and John Rosselli. Cain was an informant and may have been discovered, but it seems that he was alleged to try to take over the Outfit too. Giancana was Rosselli's protector, but with Mooney he had no protection and wasn't liked by Aiuppa.

As for Blasi killing Giancana, there's another theory that Blasi let the killers in, but he wasn't an actual shooter. This one makes the most sense to me. Joe Fosco talks about it.

Chicago I know you got your information from your father, which is obviously a better source then any of us but like you say your father was in Giancanas crew. Have you ever thought he showed bias towards Sam?

Just putting it out there.

Faithful1, I agree with everything you said about the timeline. Very good.
It's only a small technicality that I was pointing out that you have basically restated for me.
Yes, Accardo was on the Commission before Giancana.
However, here is the key thing to remember that I will not back down on at any time:
As long as Ricca was ALIVE, Accardo was NEVER the top Boss. Even when Ricca was in jail temporarily. Ricca & Accardo were the two Bosses, but if push came to shove, Ricca made the final call.
The same can be said during Giancana's reign. Giancana was the Day to Day Boss, but as long as Ricca was alive, Ricca made the final call on certain issues.
Accardo was more of an equal with Giancana. Giancana never took orders from Accardo. I repeat. Never.
The fact that Giancana REFUSED to have Cerone be Underboss of the entire Outfit shows Giancana's power. Accardo could not over rule him. ACCARDO HAD TO ACCEPT IT. That is proof alone.
You'll never read this in a book.
Does this make sense to you?

Well that wiretap of accardo and Giancana painted a different picture. It was if Accardo was TELLING Sam what to do, listen to it, it's online somewhere.

Tommy, In a marriage with a husband and wife, they are basically considered equal. Correct?
Sometimes the husband gets his way, sometimes the wife gets her way.

I don't need to hear any recording.
You can't judge a multi-year relationship on ONE recording. The fact that Giancana refused to have Cerone be his basic equal partner and underboss of the entire Outfit SPEAKS VOLUMES.

If you want to insist that Giancana took orders from Accardo, then so be it. The whole discussion about Accardo versus Giancana is becoming ridiculous. No offense.

I have a book on Cain called "The Tangled Web" but have only flipped through it; I think his brother wrote it. He was an interesting guy but like so much of mob history it sounds like there has been a lot of half truths and myths mixed in with whatever he actually did; he has been fingered in everything from the JFK assasination to the Bay of Pigs, and by one account I remember reading his "double agent" act was the inspiration for Scoreses's "Departed." Cain himself also seemed to purposefully promote these kinds of rumors.

Anyway, he got wasted in a place here on Grand Avenue then called Rose's Sandwich Shop which is now another business; I would bet the current owners have no idea what happened there and it's probably better they don't.

Two guys in masks came in and made everyone line up against the wall and pretended like it was a robbery then executed Cain and ran.

It was one of those crimes from what I remember that virtually every mob assassin who was on the street at the time has been fingered for, including Aleman and Lombardo.

consensus said giancana had to go which means ricca and accardo demoted him

giancana was demoted for doing goofy shit

then he was killed in 1975 for running off the at the mouth (more goofy shit)