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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: dontomasso] #722540
06/26/13 04:04 PM
06/26/13 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: dontomasso
I agree FS, but something happened to Michael after the incident with McCluskey. He told Vito he was now "with him" which of course was both a physical fact and a metaphor, but then the following day I think he saw the way Sonny and Tom were running things, and he realized they both didn't get it. Thats when he announced the plan to "kill them both." After everyone had a god laugh, he took apart Sonny's argument and then Ton's argument, and he found an ally in Clemenza (the smart one) who said "Mikey's right." He seemed a transformed man who knoew he was destined to lead the family.

I don't see it that way. I think Michael stepped up because he knew it had to be done to protect his father. It was going to be a one and done event.

He knew he would have to go away and leave his lover and it would be a while before he would be home.

When he killed you could tell on his face that he wasn't the killer type. He left and went to Itlay and almost became a normal life once again, Still guarded but a more normal style. Normal enough to fall in love and get married. Without any other family members there I may add.

It wasn't until Sonny is reported killed that he is pulled back into the life not by choice, but knowing there was no one else to step up with Sonny gone. His father once again needed him. His family needed him.

It was what changed him and then he started getting that wild mind of his working. And look what it did to him.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: dontomasso] #722551
06/26/13 04:53 PM
06/26/13 04:53 PM
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Getting back to the original topic, the writers put some nonsensical words in Michael's mouth at the end of GF, and these are among them.

Describing Tessio as smart for signing his own death warrant by falling into Michael's trap is like calling Vito smart for sending Luca to the Tattaglias.

A smarter person would have seen Michael's talent and intelligence after he figured out the right way to kill Sollozzo. A smarter person would never have believed that Michael would really make Carlo his right-hand man. A smarter person might have listened to Michael when he told the capos that negotiations were under way to solve all their problems and answer all their questions. A smarter person would have thought twice about approaching Michael with a fake meeting shortly after expressing doubts about the future of the Corleone Family - in front of Michael, no less.

Maybe Clemenza was dumber, but Tessio was hardly smart.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: The Last Woltz] #722796
06/27/13 06:36 PM
06/27/13 06:36 PM
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When Michael said "Tessio was always smarter" was that Tessio was able to recognize change quicker than Clemenza. Clemenza was a drunk. It was he that allowed that little greedy runt Paulie to call in sick giving the Tattaglias the opening they needed to shoot at V Corleone. Clemenza had a heart, meaning he believed Hitler should have been stopped before 1939 but he was not able to see that people were looking to kill Vito in order to bring in their narcotics (opium/heroin) supplied to numb the pain associated with death. Vito sent Luca to the Tattaglias because Luca was dispensable. If you read the novel Luca Brazi was a stone cold sociopathic killer who was suicidal and didn't want his bad gene's to be passed down to a child which is why he had the "prostitute" killed for having his baby.


Tessio was honest, in the film he wanted to part ways with Vito but Godfather didn't want that. As far as Michael shooting Sollozzo I can't really comment on that because I, like Tom Hagan, feel that Sunny should have kept his cool and focused a little more on being productive and not so over eager to join forces with Sollozzo. Yes, Michael was very intelligent and he didn't seem surprised that Clemenza would follow order's till the end. Tessio was angry.. and I'm almost thinking the writer's threw in the "Tessio was always smarter line" because they already knew a second film was going to be released, which it did, around 1978. At that point Tessio must have thought that Carlo was going to be the right hand man which is why he approached Michael with the meeting because by then it was clear he didn't want Michael to be head of the family.

Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: paprincess] #722808
06/27/13 06:59 PM
06/27/13 06:59 PM
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I think you need to revisit the film and/or the novel. "Clemenza was a drunk." Where did that come from?

"It was he [Clemenza] that allowed that little greedy runt Paulie to call in sick"

CLEMENZA" -- "I asked Freddy if he wants me to get a different bodyguard and he said "no."

"...they already knew a second film was going to be released (they did?), which it did, around 1978. (You mean '74)

Last edited by olivant; 06/27/13 06:59 PM.

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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: olivant] #722882
06/27/13 11:56 PM
06/27/13 11:56 PM
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If he really thought Michael was going to make Carlo his right hand man then he wasn't very smart. I have always felt that Michael liked and trusted Clemenza more then Tessio. Even before they know where the meeting is going to be held its Clemenza that Michael trusts to plant the gun. It's Clemenza that instructs Michael on how to carry out the hit. When Clemenza is cooking for the men while Michael is talking to Kay you even see Clemenza joking with him about telling Kay he loves her. You never see any of this one-on-one interaction between Michael and Tessio. I also think Michael felt Clemenza was more loyal to his father and the family. When Vito asks Clemenza and Tessio if they trust him and Michael's plans its Clemenza that immediately replies " yes Godfather." I agree with some of the others that the"Tessio was always smarter" remark was said sarcastically. In my opinion I think Micheal expected the traitor to be Tessio the whole time.

Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: dontomasso] #722883
06/28/13 12:00 AM
06/28/13 12:00 AM
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Ya'll keep ignoring what Michael says first: "It's a smart move."


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: olivant] #722891
06/28/13 12:34 AM
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I just put the movie in and watched this scene. I will concede to you that it may not be said in a sarcastic tone especially when you take in to account the "smart move" statement." However I stand by the fact that Michael expected it to be Tessio that betrayed him all along. I think FFC put those scenes of Michael and Clemenza in to show the viewer there was some sort of bond between the two. We see none of that between Michael and Tessio. Was it the smart move? Vito told Michael exactly how everything was going to go down. Did Tessio not learn anything from Vito. If Vito was able to predict what was going to happen, wouldn't smart Tessio be able to come up with a plan that wasn't so obvious. And then to top it off you go to Michael with your plan in the middle of his fathers burial. Then you go over to the enemy and shake his hand right in front of Michael. It may have been the smart move but Tessio sure set it up like a complete idiot.

Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: The Last Woltz] #722902
06/28/13 03:01 AM
06/28/13 03:01 AM
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The Last Woltz, I agree with your assessment of Tessio. Tessio wasn't smart at all. He wasn't even a convincing liar. When he says to Micheal "The meeting will be in Brooklyn, on my turf, where you'll be safe", He doesn't even sound sincere at all. Then, he goes right over to Barzini and tells him right in front of Micheal. No, Tessio was more AMBITIOUS than Clemenza, but not smarter. Anyway, look who got discovered and then killed, Tessio, not Clemenza.

Last edited by Chicago; 06/28/13 03:04 AM.
Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: dontomasso] #722909
06/28/13 04:27 AM
06/28/13 04:27 AM
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Here's one more thing that pops into my mind which undermines my argument above, but supports the assumption that Michael trusted Clemenza more.
When Tessio says he knows the restaurant, Michael wants Clemenza "to figure a way to have a weapon planted there". Why Clemenza? After all it was Tessio who knew the bar!
Was Tessio too dumb in technical ways?
Or was it that Tessio's men were known in that bar?

Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: Danito] #722942
06/28/13 12:20 PM
06/28/13 12:20 PM
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You have to take Michael saying "Its a smart move" in context. That context would be that the Corleone family was weak and depleted, and that it was only a matter of time that Barzini would get away with chiseling away at Tessio and Clemenza's territories, and that once the family made the move to Vegas, they wold abandon New York altogether.

In other words it was a smart move if someone assumed all the misdirection Michael was throwing around to get to settle all the family business.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: dontomasso] #722947
06/28/13 12:32 PM
06/28/13 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: dontomasso
In other words it was a smart move if someone assumed all the misdirection Michael was throwing around to get to settle all the family business.


Exactly DT. The misdirection was working and Michael's characterization of Tessio's decision acknowledged that. Because it was working so well, Michael then told Tom that he was going to wait util after the baptism of Connie's baby.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: paprincess] #722958
06/28/13 01:34 PM
06/28/13 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: paprincess


When Michael said "Tessio was always smarter" was that Tessio was able to recognize change quicker than Clemenza. Clemenza was a drunk. It was he that allowed that little greedy runt Paulie to call in sick giving the Tattaglias the opening they needed to shoot at V Corleone. Clemenza had a heart, meaning he believed Hitler should have been stopped before 1939 but he was not able to see that people were looking to kill Vito in order to bring in their narcotics (opium/heroin) supplied to numb the pain associated with death. Vito sent Luca to the Tattaglias because Luca was dispensable. If you read the novel Luca Brazi was a stone cold sociopathic killer who was suicidal and didn't want his bad gene's to be passed down to a child which is why he had the "prostitute" killed for having his baby.


Clemenza was exonerated for Paulie's misdeeds. And he does tell Sonny that he had asked Fredo whether he should switch bodyguards, and Fredo told him not to. Why do you think he's a drunk?

As for Luca, he was hardly "dispensable." In the novel his unique skills are made even more clear. The negatives you cite made him all the more suited for his role. Even in the movie, Sonny mentions that the Family would be in a lot of trouble if Luca sells out.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: The Last Woltz] #722963
06/28/13 01:40 PM
06/28/13 01:40 PM
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Who is a drunk?


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: dontomasso] #723013
06/28/13 04:40 PM
06/28/13 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: dontomasso
Who is a drunk?


paprincess referred to Clemenza as a drunk in the post I quoted above.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: olivant] #724240
07/05/13 02:07 AM
07/05/13 02:07 AM
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at Connie's wedding, paulie revealed he was greedy when he commented on the money envelopes and said "marrone if this was anybody else's wedding to clemenza, clemenza was too busy dancing and drinking wine to notice paulie could be bribed to call in sick, which he did, which gave the turk the opportunity to gun down the godfather...

Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: paprincess] #724265
07/05/13 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: paprincess
at Connie's wedding, paulie revealed he was greedy when he commented on the money envelopes and said "marrone if this was anybody else's wedding to clemenza, clemenza was too busy dancing and drinking wine to notice paulie could be bribed to call in sick, which he did, which gave the turk the opportunity to gun down the godfather...



Watch the scene again. Paulie does not say that to Clemenza. He just mutters it to himself. Clemenza's nowhere to be seen.

That may be foreshadowing to the audience, but not to Clemenza, drunk or not.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: The Last Woltz] #724267
07/05/13 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: The Last Woltz


Watch the scene again. Paulie does not say that to Clemenza. He just mutters it to himself. Clemenza's nowhere to be seen.

That may be foreshadowing to the audience, but not to Clemenza, drunk or not.


Exactly W. He does say Sfortunata to himself. It lets the audience know that if he didn't have to worry about the Corleones murdering him, he'd steal the purse.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: scarfacetm] #724569
07/07/13 12:48 AM
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[/quote] I think Sonny would of been better as Michael's underboss, his temper would keep the troops in line and if Michael handed down a hit order Sonny'd be best to carry it out, that being said though I don't think the baptism hit would of went down as well if Sonny was around. [/quote]

I beg to differ. Yes, we can imagine and fabricate all day, but Michael HAD TO BE the family Savior. Plus, I think it would be the opposite...Sonny could not be controlled...that was evident. If anything, if Sonny had lived, no one would have taken that crown from him.


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Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: GoldenEagle] #724575
07/07/13 01:31 AM
07/07/13 01:31 AM
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Once again everyone is taking it personal and not keeping it business... Luca was dispensable as he was a soldier and a killer, someone Vito avoided even looking at unless it was absolutely necessary. yes the family would worry if Luca switched sides because that means the old school family loyalty way was over because their biggest muscle was gone, they literally had no power left.. UNTIL Michael the more travelled and trained war hero figured out how to kill the turk. Michael was fond of Clemenza as he was considered more like part of the family, the smart move AMONGST THE EAST COAST ITALIANS was to go with Barzini, Michael had to kill EVERYONE and then run and start all over instead of go with the flow which was what Tessio was planning to do.

Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: dontomasso] #756350
12/30/13 07:13 PM
12/30/13 07:13 PM
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I have always been under the impression that Tesio was more of an earner and Clemenza was more the muscle. It was Clemenza who first got Vito mixed up in crime by giving him the guns. It seems like when there is a job to be done which involves violent force of some kind it goes to clemenzas and his people. I am sure they both earn substantial amounts of money and they probably both do assassinations.(Tesio's men hit Bruno, but we know that at that time the family was still unsure whether or not Ckemenza had betrayed them.) It just seems as if Tessio was more of a business man and Clemenza a thug.

Re: Tessio Always Smarter? [Re: dontomasso] #756548
12/31/13 08:03 PM
12/31/13 08:03 PM
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I believe the novel mentions that Tessio was more cunning than Clemenza (who was more direct and brutal; I believe the novel also mentions that Clemenza didn't like guns and preferred the garrote). The original reason why Tessio and Clemenza were split up is so they couldn't conspire against Vito but also there was a line mentioning that many families thought Tessio was acting on his own and wasn't affiliated with the Corleones.

Last edited by waynethegame; 12/31/13 08:05 PM.

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