In organized crime history. Seriously from what I have learned or researched about the cartels in Mexico and Colombia to some extent. I can confidently say there is no more hardcore organized member or not than a Los Zetas "estaca" . These guys are some freaking lunatic goons that aren't afraid of death and embrace death to some extent. I mean these guys are what you see in Hollywood movies. I'm not talking about their brutality but mentality, these aren't afraid to go upfront with the military knowing they are dong to die just for their organization. Seriously most of their members end up dieing in confrontations with the military instead of letting them being arrested. They will cut off your leg with a kitchen knife and laugh about it while you suffer in agony! I mean how many gangsters will go out dieing in a shootout with the authorites for their organization and aren't afraid to face them in close quarter shootots. You have to some really big balls to what these guys do. They just don't end up dieing but will literally protect their boss or territory with their lives from either the auhtorites or other cartel rivals!

I'm curious about the reason why these guys became that sick lol

They are said to be ex military so they would not fear their old mates, auhtorites are all part of this in some way or other.

Well most of the cartel members from either organizations aren't afraid to die and welcome it death. They think dieing in battle for their organization or protecting their bosses is the greatest honor for them. They all face the authorities in confrontations but will avoid them if it isn't neccesarry but Los Zetas will go to federal police stations and shoot them up and throw grenades at them. In Cohuila they will seek out the state police to the intent to kill them knowing they might die in the process. I mean they are complete goons even compared to the other cartel members in the other organizations, that's why they are so feared because of the suicidal mentalitity.

Most of them aren't even ex-military, they are bunch of thugs with nothing to lose. The original 30 that were part of Osiel's security were ex-military but only about 4 or 5 were ex-special mexican forces. Most of the originals are either dead or arrested and the original ones are bosses.

This is what your idols Los Zetas do for a living

"They will cut off your leg with a kitchen knife and laugh about it while you suffer in agony! I mean how many gangsters will go out dieing in a shootout with the authorites for their organization and aren't afraid to face them in close quarter shootots. You have to some really big balls to what these guys do."

I don't know man, these guys don't impress me. To me these are animals and cowards, pure scum. Certainly not the kind of gangsters with big balls I used to look up to I know that.

Disgusting. It's scum maiming scum, but still disgusting.

I was just kidding about them slicing up your leg while you scream in agony. They're cold but they're not cowards in my opinion. They won't do make you suffer in agony but will keep punishing you until you fold or make you soft and then stop but then again I have never seen a video of them torturing people till they die in agony. A large part of their membership or man power are teenagers and young adults, but that doesn't mean they are tougher than your average mobster. If that's what you want to hear. All of the gangster around the world are scum and will always be. Hell given the chance I bet most mobsters will cut your head off if they could get away with it.

They're coked up, probably. You can do anything if you are on that shit (or something like it), especially if you are a sociopath (or something like it). Even Roy DeMeo was reportedly drunk or hungover almost constantly.

Beheading someone is one of the gruesome shock-tactics that has been going on for centuries. Hence, almost every ethnic organized crime group has used beheading for shock. Most just don't actually film it lol. And the amount of beheadings that goes on in Mexico is nothing short of insane.
I have a pretty strong stomach, but those beheading videos shock the hell out of me. I hate those clips, but you know what they say: curiosity killed the cat.

I wouldn't call most Zetas, or most cartel members in general courageous. Even if we're leaving morality aside.

The media likes to hype them up as highly-trained, professional, James Bond-like killing machines, but the truth is that they are nothing new. Their kind have existed throughout Africa for decades. Kids born in poverty, brainwashed, armed, taught the basics of not shooting themselves with their own guns(if that) and used as cannon fodder to kill each other. All of them are blasted out of their minds on coke, heroin and booze 99% of the time.

Are they dangerous? Yes. Brutal? Sure. Courageous? Fuck no. Though? No.

Coincidentally, I've been reading the book "El Sicario: Confessions of a Mexican Cartel Assassin". Apparently the protagonist was one of the best sicarios in Mexico, responsible for hundreds of killings. Even he confesses he was coked up to the eyeballs most of the time and he doesn't even remember part of the shit he did. He also said that, even though the level of violence in Mexico increased, the shooters on the street today are far worse quality-wise than those of even 5-10 years ago. They're not "real sicarios", just unskilled, incompetent morons.

Yeah I imagine they have to be coked up when they first start but they probably get desensitized after a couple of times doing it. I've read that the Familia Michocana members were told to dismember petty thiefs or rivals to get used to the seeing blood and doing crazy shit. I think if was La Tatuta the current leader of the of the Knights Templar that told his new recruits to do that so they can desentized.

I haven't read the book yet and the main reason is because of the clips of seen of his documentary, he sounded like a random shooter or street kid the cartel members hire by the thousands. Another cannon fodder the cartels employ by the thousands to be their front men but got lucky enough to tell his tale. I'm not interested in the cannon fodder or the dirty work itself but the core group behind that employ these street gangs to either sell drugs or manage their drug houses, act as "whistle blowers" or do street surveillance/intelligence or "halcones" as they call themselves, or sometimes as "sicarios" or hitmen. The reason why the "sicarios" are not as trained as say a couple of years back is because the traffickers themselves are not the shooters anymore. At the start of the Felipe Calderon administration many traffickers were being killed in confrontations with the authorities. So they started to evolve into more sophisticated groups. So they started to hire the local street gangs to be their front men or cannon fodder for them which "El Hummer" was the pioneer of it and all cartels followed suit. Not all traffickers took up a more of administration role but Los Zetas being the most noticeable one, they still kept street presence more so than other cartels. The "Fight for Monterrey" article from Insight Crime anaylsis gives a good insight on the Los Zetas organization and the fight between the Gulf Cartel for that metropolitan area. It basically states that there are 300 "Zetas" in that metropolitan area, and that in each neighborhood there are about 8-10 "Zetillas" or per "Zeta". They make estimations of much or what rackets they are in and how much they get out of those rackets. Many of the dead between those groups were the the local street gangs either cartel hired.

Edit:Here is the link if you're interested http://www.insightcrime.org/zetas-monterrey/how-the-zetas-took-monterrey I recoomend to start with part 1 and go from there.

I would say it's really crazy how the cartel members especially Los Zetas take over another's rival turf or how they protect it. I have always said there is a HUGE difference between killing someone in the hood and going into the streets with assault rifles and grenades to confront/attack the authorities or rival cartels knowing you might die in the process. I never understood why people here consider street gangs as not being tough compared to mobsters. I mean one lives on the cold streets and the other in a suburban neighborhood. I'm not saying mobsters are soft, far from it, well criminals in general are mentally and physically tough but to think that a mobster is tougher than a Crip or Blood is really too one sided or biased.

Because if truth be told most of them aren't. Part of the reason there's so much shooting is that most of them are scared to catch a beating. The reason there's so many of them is because they need to associate themselves with a gang that has hundreds, thousands of members to feel safe. Toughness isn't just willingness to shoot at someone.

For example look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJZjY6KaEVM

Do you see toughness in that? I don't. Look at their mannerisms, the way they act. All I see is fear and insecurity. All that bluster and that gangster talk, but they're scared to look an old white man in the eye.

As for mobsters, I don't know how it is these days, but in the past many of them were very tough, Italian or otherwise. That's because in the past they were getting an "education" in the life, served an apprenticeship, as it were. They were schooled, in violence and in streetmarts.

Yeah, the reason why there are now so many beheading videos now is because cameras are everywhere.

Beheadings always happen in wars, and I characterized what's going on in Mexico as a "warlord" thing than a "mob" thing. There are similar situations in Afghanistan with the opium warlords, but no one calls those guys mobsters.

I understand what you're trying to say but don't let their soft spoken talk fool you but I have a feeling you're generalizing or stereotyping street gangs too much. But you're focusing on the young elements of the street gangs which are are less experience than the OGs and more prone to violence because they are young and feel they have to prove themselves. And you're right just because you can shoot someone doesn't make you tough but the cold streets and living on the edge makes you tough. And when I say street gangs I mean REAL street gangs not high school wannabe gangs. I would say is that the toughest gangs in the U.S are the prison gangs, there is a reason why mobsters don't mess with them. Many of the prison gang members are older and more experience guys, and are a lot more organized and disciplined than the street gangs. I can safely say that if you put 4 prison gang members with "home made" shanks vs 4 mobsters with "home made" shanks in a cell. The prison gang members will probably win many of the scenarios. There is a reason why cartel members used Mexican-American prison gangs as muscle back in the 90s and early 2000s. Because they knew how tough and brave they were. Hell even today you will see some deported gang members/prison gang members as part of the core members of the cartels. Especially in the Gulf Cartel and Los Zetas to some extent.

I think the opium warlords in Afghanistan are more comparable to the Colombian FARC in which they are a paramilitary group first and drug traffickes last both seek legitimate political platform or want to legitimaitze themselves as the political powers of the country they are occupying and their modus operndi are very different. The FARC for example occupy the jungles and mountains of Colombia with an army of 10,000 soldiers but they operate freely in the outskirts of Colombia where there is no permenant presence of the authority or state. They are completely cut off from the Colombian society and aren't part of the social fabric and established within the social fabric of Colombia like the cartels are. The cartels operate within the state and are part of the social fabric of Mexico or Colombia or are well established within the country, in some cities or towns more so than others. The cartels have deeply penetrated the government and public institutions and use their influence against their enemies or for them but still remain a seperte identity from that of the government. They stay out of politics but will intervene if someone unwarranted that is a possible threat to them is placed or running for major and sometimes even governor. The cartels have legitimate companies to launder their money and the drug money economy is deeply embedded within the legal economy. So it's really hard for the government to root out their assets. etc.

I agree with you, but all this courage and toughness chat aside shooting people is a requirement for a gangster.

I read El Sicario fuckin worst most boring book I ever read but yea he does claim to be zonked out on coke weed and booze practically 24/7 but c'mon. The video I posted isn't nearly as violent or messy as others I've seen and one video with about 6 beheadings,at least 3 or 4 done with the same dull knife,started with a female doing the task. The way they they go about is what disturbs me

I hate Los Zetas, and other mexican cartels. They are insane, i've seen how they cut people's heads with knives, chainsaws, and then they boil them. They are a bunch of wild animals, they don't have code like the rest of the respected gangsters. Their code is the money - they do horrible things for them, they are unable to do sitdowns, or solve the problem other way. They just kill everyone, and torture them.

I like Yakuza, Vor v zakone, all gangs who have some code of honor.

What "code" are you talking about? Don't kid yourself thinking gangsters have an "honorable" code, for all gangsters it all comes down to the money or business. You're focusing too much on the violence that is or not connected to organized crime in Mexico. 95% percent of the homicides in Mexico are not investigated but then again just because there are homicides in a town doesn't mean there is a "fight" between organized crime groups. Mexico has always or was a somewhat violent country but it was covered up by the PRI party like they are covering up or trying to cover up stuff related to violence or organized crime all together. Much of the brutality you heard a couple of years back was mainly done by Los Zetas and the Gulf Cartel war for Monterrey-Reynosa battle and the splinter groups trying to assert their dominance unto other splinter groups. Not all cartels are at war with each other, hell the cartel "wars" topped and really ended at 2010, many of the large cartels have alliances with each other. Since 2009 the Sinaloa Cartel and Tijuana Cartel have been at piece and the reason was because of the treaty they made with each other after the Teo-Ingeriero war or dispute for the Tijuana plaza. The Sinaloa Cartel pays "piso" or a tax to the Arellano Felix family/Tijuana Cartel to pass drugs through their territory but not only that they also co operate with each other to pass drugs. They ship and distribute their drugs together across the US with different stamp packages going to their respective distributors in the US. Remember the 105 tons of weed confiscated in Baja California about 2 years ago? Well half of it was from Mayo Zambada(Sinaloa Cartel) and some of it was from El Inge (Arellano Felix Family/Tijuana Cartel). The Knights Templar also pays taxes to the Tijuan Cartel to pass drugs through there and they also co-operate with the Sinaloa Cartel to pass drugs into the US. The Sinaloa Cartel also pays taxes to the Gulf Cartel to pass drugs using the Miguel Aleman and Matamoros corridors, there has never been bad blood between them since 2006.( Also with the Knights Templar cartel). The reason why the Los Zetas and many other upcoming/splinter groups are or were so violent was because they were not established as the old guard and because they had been mostly cut out of the drug trafficking, so they resorted to extortion, kidnapping, cd piracyy, human trafficking etc. crimes not practiced by the old guard and to some extent considered "taboo" amongst the drug trafficking world of Mexico. So that's when shit started to get ugly because Los Zetas used brutality to either intimidate their rivals/police/citzens, heat up a "plaza" or territory, consolidate their power. Many or most of the violence you see in Mexico(since 2010) is from street gangs, small cartels or ordinary violence not associated with drugs or illegal income but there still is some bad blood between Los Zetas and the Gulf Cartel.

BordertownResident you with all due respect are wrong

i'm not defending the zetas, but there are countless threads on here that show admiration for mobsters like roy demeo when in reality mexico has hundreds of roy demeos working for the cartels.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28824519/ns/world_news-americas/t/mexico-man-admits-dissolving-bodies/

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/20...rosecutors-say/

i don't understand how someone like demeo who killed and disposed of bodies is any different or better than what the cartels are doing, only on a much larger scale.

In my opinion the brutality that goes on has nothing to do with being 'Mexican'. Given the same circumstances any country could become another Mexico. Colombia, Sicily, Yugoslavia or the Soviet states were once just as bad. It just wasn't documented as extensively.
Even when you go back to the period of the American Civil War there was gruesome stuff going on in the scalp-hunting business of the White Southerners, Native Americans and African Americans, which in it's purest form was also some sort of organized crime.

the u.s. has had the same murder rate that mexico has now, after the civil war during the reconstruction period when southerners lost faith in the government and there were rogue ex-confederate factions like the quantrill posse massacring hundreds of innocent people. what's happening in mexico isn't particularly unique,it's just an example of what happens when the government loses control. wherever there's a breakdown in government violence flourishes. the same drug cartels in mexico are in the u.s. today but they aren't committing the same types of violent crimes in the states because they fear the government here. instead,they are low-key in the u.s. and try not to draw attention to law enforcement. they know theyll get the death penalty or locked in a supermax federal prison for life,and cant bribe the officials or breakout of prison like in mexico.

Wrong about what?

Yeah but the total death toll in Mexico isn't an accurate representation on what's happening in Mexico because the murders are never investigated, you really have to know or research/understand "narco" politics to get a more accurate estimation. Also, it's not a single "thing" that is happening in Mexico but series of events . To give you a clear understandin on how skewed the stastistics relating to organized crime in Mexico, I am going to brief you on the death toll and what happened on the 2007-2011 war between the Sinaloa Cartel and Juarez Cartel(the one with the most deaths). For a deep analyis of the whole thing, here is a good article from InsightCrime about the whole thing. http://www.insightcrime.org/juarez-war-s...inners-gang-war . Basically the Sinaloa Cartel's armed wing invaded because "El JL" the head of La Linea(Juarez Cartel) was well known to really cause trouble to both parties, from charging too much to pass drugs, impose a tax a personal tax on both Juarez Cartel/Sinaloa Cartel members operating in the city, over compensating the upper echelon of the Juarez Cartel and undercompensating the lower level members or parties, and more. He eventually caused the power structure to break and scatter, some members remained with the Juarez Cartel other joined the Sinaloa Cartel. El "JL" basically told "El Flaco"(and Chapo), a Sinaloa Cartel lieutenant and the guy responsible and behind drug trafficking for through the Juarez corridor to hit hit the road. War was declared and the Sinaloa Cartel's "Gente Nueva" or armed group came to Juarez and started to kill police officers(that were La Linea members) or threat them to join them or they were going to get killed. War was ensued, Sinaloa Cartel started to hire the 900 local street gangs as cannon fodder or foot soldiers in the upcoming war. Juarez used the Barrio Azteca street gang as cannon fodder or soldiers but unlike the Mexicles, Barrio Azteca had an hierchy/structure and was controlling the local distribution for the Juarez Cartel/La Linea. The Mexicles started to target the distribution sites, Barrio Azteca fought back and 10,000 people were killed in Juarez during 2007-2011. Most of dead were either Mexicles or Barrio Azteca gang members but about 80 Juarez Cartel/La Linea members were killed ,not sure how many Sinaloa Cartel members or enforcers were killed. About half of the 10,000 killed were disputes within the Barrio Azteca gangs because some Barrio Azteca shot callers were siding with the Sinaloa Cartel thus ensuing an internal war within Barrio Azteca.

Obviously not all of the 10,000 dead was a result of the war between the Sinaloa Cartel and Juarez Cartel. Juarez has always been a rough town and had always had about 400 or so murders per year.

Thanks for the detailed rundown. I also thought it would be impossible to know the true death tolls. I've heard of the Juarez/Beltran Leyva subgroup La Linea, their war with Sinaloa made national headlines here stateside as well. Some of the numbers are mind boggling. I remember hearing in the news about Oscar Garcia who confessed to 600 murders, and claims to have personally taken part in 300 himself http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/12/oscar-garcia-suspected-me_n_925393.html
And El Diego who claimed responsibility for 1,500 killings http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...g-killings.html
El Diego was an ex-police officer, too. It sounds like from what you're saying, the majority of the murders were between gangs of street-level dealers. The Barrio Azteca you're referring to is the same as the one that started in Texas? Are the gangs in Jaurez very Americanized like they are in Central America? from the pictures ive seen and youtube videos some of the Juarez gangs like Barrio 22 have adopted the cholo look popularized in Los Angeles, but which actually has roots in El Paso right across the border from Juarez. I do think it's mind numbing to imagine a city of 1 million has 900 gangs, even Los Angeles with 3 times the population couldn't compare. It sounds like the cartels have completely absorbed the gangs there. That's kind of similar to how the prison gangs are now calling all of the shots for the street gangs in california. Is it true the murder rate in Juarez is slowly going back to normal levels, and what do you attribute that to?