How much of the midwest families does chicago still,control.Can someone point me and the right way to find out.

I don't think they really "control" that much anymore. Perhaps what is left in Cleveland. They certainly retain a relationship with Detroit. DiFronzo and Jack Tocco were close for years and would always attend the Kentucky Derby together. I would assume they are too old at this point. Detroit used to seek the Outfit's approval for their bosses going up through the mid 1990s according to Willie Messino. I'm not sure that's still the case or not.

Now insert the Utah Expert to give the ultimate final word and remember, no disagreeing with him children.

Where did Messino say this? Is this in one of Joe Fosco's articles? I wonder how far back this arrangement went. Seems like it went as far back as the 1920s.

Yes that's exactly where that source is from. Messino was taken frequently to meet with mobsters from other cities until he had an episode when he went off the deepend on a guy and threatened to kill him, embarrassing Cerone and DiFronzo.

The meeting between Chicago and Detroit that Fosco cited took place in Rosemont. And I would agree with you that Chicago and Detroit have been in contact going back that far.

Didn't know Tocco and DiFronzo were buddies. I've heard rumors Jack's retired now and that DiFronzo might be ready to throw in the towel. Who wants to spend the rest of their elderly years in jail? No one including them.

Anyone know anything about the Detroit Capo "Chicago Tony" La Piana? How he came about that nickname?

What midwest families outside of Detroit are left to control? Cleveland, Kansas City, and Milwaukee are defunct.

Exactly. At this point, it's Chicago and, to a much lesser degree, Detroit. And even if there were others, the Outfit's influence doesn't really extend that far anymore.

I know they have a crews in Rockford and Milwaukee,but what about KC,ST AND Cle.

I was thinking that when Cleveland was active they answered to the Genovese in NY and not Chicago. Is that correct?

Got to agree with others here, aside from MAYBE one guy in Las Vegas who oversees any Outfit interests, I don't think there is anything for Chicago to control anywhere out west. I would think KC has autonomy. St. Louis is gone or almost gone. L.A. is history. Cleveland was supposedly giving monies to Rudy Fratto in the last decade or so.

The only Family that they control in the West is Lew Farrell's old family in Des Moines, Iowa. I've heard the Fratto Family in Iowa has 65 made guys; 230 associates; and they completely OWN the local and state governments.

Oh, and of course the families in Denver, Colorado and Pueblo, Colorado. Checkers Smaldone left all of his sizeable operations to the Outfit in his will. Apparently, he was a reel generous guy. (Obviously i'm really bored at work today.)

HAVE A NICE WEEKEND YOUS GUYS! Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Yes, Cleveland answered to the Genovese back in the day. The Outfit's influence was over families west of Chicago.



Except for the first paragraph, I have to assume the rest of this post is tongue-in-cheek.

Do they still even make new guys?

Chicago probably absorbed whatever was left in Milwaukee

Chicago stopped fucking with kansascity because of the casino indictments

Cleveland and st.louis I couldn't even tell you

Whatever "mob" is left in Detroit is so small and weak it is an embarrassment to the mob to call it the mob.

There are probably a handful of lowlifes running minor rackets to line their own pockets but to insinuate that it has anything to do with the criminal organization of the past is to insult the latter.

What is a "mob" when it has no political power, has been going downhill for decades and virtually no structure?

I think in a lot of cases what people call the mob these days is really just the extended families of onetime mobsters running businesses and potentially cheating on their tax returns.

It's like calling a street that has a French restaurant and a party store that sells Champagne "Little Paris."

I completely agree. Nice post. Glad to see you back jonny!

Is your avatar from Once Upon a Time In America Hairy?

Does ANY LCN family have political power anymore?

No LCN family has the political power they used to have. The 5 families and Chicago are the only ones who do today.

Great post, you need to post here more often.

Yes it is Cam. I think it´s a nice image that catches some of that movie´s fine cinematography.

I agree it's an amazing film but i personally prefer Leone's Once Upon a Time In The West which is one of my favourite movies.

You should read Scott Burnstein's book on the Detroit Outfit and read his posts. The Detroit Outfit does still exist although much smaller and not as powerful as it was under Zerilli. To paraphrase Mark Twain, "The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated."

Good to hear from you guys too. Thanks for the kudos.

Regarding the above: Wrong. Here is an old post from Ivy League from 2011, who I think has read everything Burnstein has ever written.

You can stop reading after the intro if you want: The last bust was in 2006. Then you have to go back almost 10 years for the one prior to that.

Period.

Everything else is just fantasy.

"That article was written by Scott Burnstein, who posts over on the Real Deal. I suppose it depends on how you define both "active" and "family."

Activity? The last significant bust involving the Detroit mob was back in 2006. Mainly a gambling and loansharking case. Then you have to go back 10 years to 1996 when Tocco and a bunch of other guys were rounded up.

Family? Scott believes there is 40-50 members there. I have to disagree for any number of reasons. First, the families in New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia and Chicago each have about 50 members but far more activity than Detroit. And I don't buy the argument that Detroit has found a way to avoid law enforcement detection while every other family hasn't. Second, in 1996 the max estimate what 30 members there. It's highly unlikely that a family like Detroit could increase that much in size over the past 15 years. Scott cites rumors about a couple of making ceremonies in recent years but it's not much to go on.

When judging which families are still viable, I choose to use the RICO standard - an ongoing pattern of crimes conducted in behalf of an organization. In my view, Detroit doesn't meet that standard anymore."

Unless you are God or a member of the Detroit Outfit with inside info I don't think you should be so arrogant as to call what I wrote "wrong." You might disagree, and that's your right, but you need more than a quote from Ivy League/Wiseguy to prove Scott wrong. Scott has met and been over to the houses of many Detroit people, and some of them even own copies of his previous book on Detroit. Part of what gets him in is that his grandfather founded the Purple Gang. Anyway, I trust that Scott, who, by the way is also close to local FBI agents and local mob experts, knows more about the Detroit Outfit than most of us here.

As for a lack of arrests, one thing to consider is a lack of financial resources and reconsideration of priorities. Whatever the case, I admit that Detroit isn't my area of expertise and I know my limitations. I suggest that others recognize their own limitations before pronouncing official judgments.

Agreed. I mean at the end of the day, we are all just guessing. I dont think its wrong to assume that Burnstein is wrong given the research that he does. AT the end of the day, him and Ivy just have opinions. It does seem that Scott does a fair amount of research.

I don't know all that much about Detroit; I do know about Chicago. We have had the numbers debate over Chicago ad infinitum, and I can tell you virtually conclusively that not even Chicago has close to 40-50 members. We all but definitely solved this in another thread and, not to sound like a horse's ass, but I have had it confirmed from people who really do know in other ways. Chicago is down to mid-low 20s at best--and Detroit was never a shadow of what Chicago is, obviously, not even a shadow of a shadow of a shadow.

So anyone who says Detroit has 40-50 made guys is living in an absolute fantasy world.

Move the decimal over to the left and you are probably about right on the nose.

I can agree with you on Chicago. One thing that makes Chicago different from Detroit is that Detroit is strong connected genealogically. Odds are any given Detroit member is related to another or several others, not true for Chicago. Chicago does have its relationships, but clearly not as extensive as Detroit. So given that about Detroit I make no claim to its numbers except that I do give credence to Scott's access.

You are free to take the word of someone who thinks Detroit has 40-50 made guys.

I am extremely familiar with the city of Detroit.

Basically it's the exact same thing as the Chicago argument. On one hand you have people who look at the relevant recent arrest records, etc., and try to make a logical inference; on the other you have a group that chooses to believe that there is a wildly successful criminal organization that has managed to evade being arrested even for minor infractions for years and years and years.

During the mob's hayday--any mob's hayday--they were being arrested left and right. Everyone knew who the mobsters were and what their rackets were, for the most part.

Now true believers advance the idea that certain factions of the mob, like Detroit, suddenly got so much smarter, more stealthy and successful, that they simply are able to 1) keep their names out of the papers, and, 2) avoid arrest for anything.

I go by the FBI, news sources and common sense.

I'm not familiar enough with all of Burnstein's work to really address it but I highly doubt there is a significant active mob in Detroit.

There is probably a small amount of bookmaking here and there. They don't control unions, they don't control politics, they don't kill people.

Way to spin the other sides argument. I can do that too. On the one hand you have people who choose to believe those who research these things consistently and enthusiastically, and who have access to these individuals. On the other hand you have a group of people who get their information solely through wikipedia articles and the occassional FBI release and act as if wikipedia is wildly accurate reporting system.