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Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? #696826
02/15/13 12:07 PM
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Much has been written about the "danse macabre" that constituted the dialogue between Michael and Roth, and much of it centers on Michael's plan to kill him. What I am wondering is whether or not Roth ever bought Michael's claim that Frank Pentangeli tried to have him assassinated. Obviously Roth knew about Frank and his troubles with the Rosato brothers, and he backed the Rosatos probably because he thought Frankie was weal and/or he could get Michael to go along.

He also had to know that Frank had been loyal to Michael for years, and to Vito before that. Armed with all this information Roth would have also had to know that Frankie did not understand much about "big deals" and that there was no way he could engineer a complex assassination attempt at Lake Tahoe where he went to get Michael's permission to kill the Rosatos. In truth Frankie didn't know what Michael's answer would be, so he would have had to arrange the whole thing the night of the shooting.

So if Roth wasn't buying it, then each man knew before they went to Cuba that the other was going to try to whack him.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #701895
03/09/13 10:10 PM
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I think Roth completely bought Michael believing it was Pentangeli that tried to have him killed. It's why Roth felt comfortable in having the Rosato brothers kill Pentangeli.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #701907
03/10/13 02:21 AM
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More precisely, it's why Roth felt comfortable with having the Rosato brothers pretend to ALMOST kill Pentangeli.

Michael wasn't even supposed to know Roth was backing the Rosato brothers. Michael simply mentioned that he would kill Pentangeli as a (supposed) courtesy to Roth so he would know what was going on in New York when the Rosatos would gain more power and be a stronger force after Pentangeli's death.

How Roth had set things up, Michael would think Pentangeli wanted Michael to "take off the cuffs".
With Michael supporting the Rosato's claim to those three territories Clemenza had promised them, ordering Pentangeli to give those territories up to the Rosatos (and as a consequence, weakening Pentangeli) Michael could be fooled into believing that Pentangeli was protecting his own interests in New York.

Michael knew better. Roth did not. Roth MIGHT have known better had Fredo told Ola that Pentangeli's meeting with the Rosatos was to hand over those three territories and make the peace per Michael's order.

In the end, Roth did the only thing he could- get Pentangeli out of the way and hopefully make him a pawn to turn against Michael.

Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #701914
03/10/13 03:06 AM
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My head is sort of spinning with your post but I don't think the Rosatos were just "pretending" when they attacked Pentangeli. It's not like they knew the cop would come in and you can see their surprised, even panicked, reaction. They had every intention of killing him right there.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #701978
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If they killed Pentangeli, what would Roth gain? It sure wouldn't take Michael out of the picture. And why would they plant heroin on him?
The only way it works is for it to be a fake hit. They didn't NEED to know a cop would show up. Roth engineered the whole thing. Roth could have simply had a cop waiting up the street until Pentangeli and Rosatos went inside.

All the Rosatos would need to know is that they need to keep pentangeli alive, mention Michael Corleone and plant drugs on him. Roth would handle the police/FBI end of the deal.

Hell, it might even be better if the cops DID kill the unsuspecting Rosato brothers so Roth could have a Jew take over the territory. Either way, Roth's gain would only come through eliminating Michael- either by murder or by sending him to jail for a long time. Hence the deal for Pentangeli to roll over on Michael and Questadt to steer the hearing against him.

Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: GabbyBM] #701983
03/10/13 06:02 PM
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Roth knew Pentangeli would be at Anthony's party, and would be contentious about Michael favoring the Rosatos over him. So, according to Roth's reasoning, Pentangeli would have a perfect motivation to try to kill Michael--and would make the perfect patsy for the hit attempt that Roth set up.

So, when Michael called on Roth in Miami and said, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man," Roth had every reason to believe him.
But, when Michael, instead of having Pentangeli whacked, sent him to meet with the Rosatos, Roth knew Michael didn't suspect him--raising the possibility that Michael suspected Roth. So Roth instructed the Rosatos to kill Pentangeli at their meeting. He ordered Pentangeli to be killed in order to remove the Corleones' main ally and muscle in NY--and have his own allies, the Rosatos, take over. At that point, Roth was confident that once Michael landed in Cuba, Roth could use his connections in the Cuban government to squash him.

I believe by the time of their last meeting, both Michael and Roth knew each others' intentions. One of the marvels of that scene is how they held out despite that: Michael to find out who the traitor was, Roth for the $2 million.

Once again: Roth did not engineer Pentangeli's survival to screw Michael. Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million, and have him killed in a government car on the way home from the Presidential New Year's Eve Party. Why, therefore, would Roth try to engineer an incredibly difficult, incredibly dangerous, split-second-timed rescue of Pentangeli? So that Pentangeli could develop a grudge against Michael and testify against him at a Senate hearing weeks or months after the attempt--by which time, according to Roth's plan, Michael would already be long dead?


And suppose Roth did want to have the cops rescue Pentangeli at the last moment. How would he do it? Call his contact at the police precinct and say, "Hello, Shultz, I want you to send a beat cop to Richie's bar and have him arrive at 3:44 and 25 seconds. Not 3:44 and 15 seconds, not 3:44 and 35 seconds--3:44 and 25 seconds. Got it? Now let's synchronize watches..."

Or, suppose he was lurking outside in a phone booth: "Hello, 56th Police Precinct? Something fishy's going on in Richie's bar. Better send a cop there--but make sure he gets there at 3:44 and 25 seconds."


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #701987
03/10/13 06:18 PM
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The only way for Roth to "engineer" the near fatal attempt on Pentangeli's life is that he had only the cop who happened to walk past the joint on his payroll. In this scenario, the Rosato Brothers were probably in on it as well, otherwise Roth would have made a stupidious risky move, because he could have lost his allies in New York in a firefight with the police. Or they could have turned on him instead if they would find out that Roth had betrayed them. The other agents who arrived at the scene for backup could not have been involved in Roth's plan, otherwise they wouldn't have fired like cowboys.

In the end, whatever the plan was, it turned out to be quite a mess.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #701988
03/10/13 06:21 PM
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I pretty much agree TB. I noticed the across the table look that Roth and Micahel gave to each other at meeting hosted by Batista that indicated their antipathy toward one another.

Another thing about the bar scene is how a policeman would not know the Rosatos. He gave no indication that he recognized them. I don't find that plausible in a precinct.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: olivant] #701990
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Originally Posted By: olivant
Another thing about the bar scene is how a policeman would not know the Rosatos. He gave no indication that he recognized them. I don't find that plausible in a precinct.


In the case of Roth engineering it they obviously needed to pretend, because Pentangeli could have overheard it, or otherwise the bartender.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: Turnbull] #702009
03/10/13 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Roth knew Pentangeli would be at Anthony's party, and would be contentious about Michael favoring the Rosatos over him. So, according to Roth's reasoning, Pentangeli would have a perfect motivation to try to kill Michael--and would make the perfect patsy for the hit attempt that Roth set up.

So, when Michael called on Roth in Miami and said, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man," Roth had every reason to believe him.
But, when Michael, instead of having Pentangeli whacked, sent him to meet with the Rosatos, Roth knew Michael didn't suspect him--raising the possibility that Michael suspected Roth. So Roth instructed the Rosatos to kill Pentangeli at their meeting. He ordered Pentangeli to be killed in order to remove the Corleones' main ally and muscle in NY--and have his own allies, the Rosatos, take over. At that point, Roth was confident that once Michael landed in Cuba, Roth could use his connections in the Cuban government to squash him.

I believe by the time of their last meeting, both Michael and Roth knew each others' intentions. One of the marvels of that scene is how they held out despite that: Michael to find out who the traitor was, Roth for the $2 million.

Once again: Roth did not engineer Pentangeli's survival to screw Michael. Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million, and have him killed in a government car on the way home from the Presidential New Year's Eve Party. Why, therefore, would Roth try to engineer an incredibly difficult, incredibly dangerous, split-second-timed rescue of Pentangeli? So that Pentangeli could develop a grudge against Michael and testify against him at a Senate hearing weeks or months after the attempt--by which time, according to Roth's plan, Michael would already be long dead?


And suppose Roth did want to have the cops rescue Pentangeli at the last moment. How would he do it? Call his contact at the police precinct and say, "Hello, Shultz, I want you to send a beat cop to Richie's bar and have him arrive at 3:44 and 25 seconds. Not 3:44 and 15 seconds, not 3:44 and 35 seconds--3:44 and 25 seconds. Got it? Now let's synchronize watches..."

Or, suppose he was lurking outside in a phone booth: "Hello, 56th Police Precinct? Something fishy's going on in Richie's bar. Better send a cop there--but make sure he gets there at 3:44 and 25 seconds."


Finally, some common sense.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: olivant] #702017
03/10/13 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: olivant

Another thing about the bar scene is how a policeman would not know the Rosatos. He gave no indication that he recognized them. I don't find that plausible in a precinct.

Not plausible in a police precinct where the Rosatos operated. Perhaps they agreed to meet on "neutral ground"--and the bar was in "neutral ground"? Seems likely that Pentangeli wouldn't agree to meet the Rosatos in their territory.


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E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702018
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Then why the lie? Why tell Frankie that "Michael Corleone says hello" 10 seconds before he's dead? Why not tell him "That jew in Miami sends his regards"?

There's no sense to it. The only reason to do so is to make Frankie believe that Michael ordered the hit on him. And why do that if the main goal is Frankie's death? That's as much nonsense as Sollozzo telling Luca Brasi that "Vito says hello".

Taunting? I'm not buying it. Especially when it's revealed by Tom later that Roth engineered the whole thing.

Last edited by GabbyBM; 03/10/13 09:55 PM.
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: GabbyBM] #702024
03/10/13 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: GabbyBM
Then why the lie? Why tell Frankie that "Michael Corleone says hello" 10 seconds before he's dead? Why not tell him "That jew in Miami sends his regards"?

There's no sense to it. The only reason to do so is to make Frankie believe that Michael ordered the hit on him. And why do that if the main goal is Frankie's death? That's as much nonsense as Sollozzo telling Luca Brasi that "Vito says hello".

Taunting? I'm not buying it. Especially when it's revealed by Tom later that Roth engineered the whole thing.


Keep in mind that the "Michael Corleone says hello" line wasn't originally in the script. Neither Puzo or Coppola came up with it. Danny Aiello thought it up when they were filming it and asked if he could slip that line in and Coppola said he could.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: IvyLeague] #702054
03/11/13 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: GabbyBM
Then why the lie? Why tell Frankie that "Michael Corleone says hello" 10 seconds before he's dead? Why not tell him "That jew in Miami sends his regards"?

There's no sense to it. The only reason to do so is to make Frankie believe that Michael ordered the hit on him. And why do that if the main goal is Frankie's death? That's as much nonsense as Sollozzo telling Luca Brasi that "Vito says hello".

Taunting? I'm not buying it. Especially when it's revealed by Tom later that Roth engineered the whole thing.


Keep in mind that the "Michael Corleone says hello" line wasn't originally in the script. Neither Puzo or Coppola came up with it. Danny Aiello thought it up when they were filming it and asked if he could slip that line in and Coppola said he could.



Yes, but I believe it's because Coppola knew it added to the narrative of the deception.
Aiello obviously knew the reason for the deception. Aiello didn't just say it without a good reason. The reason is Roth pulling a fast one to turn Pentangeli against Michael. This was Roth's "ace in the hole" if things didn't pan out in Cuba.

There was enough in place for Pentangeli to blame Michael anyway (siding with the Jew, taking the side of the Rosato brothers over the territories). Aiello's ad-lib just put a stronger emphasis on that sense of betrayal. It was a great line and I'm thankful Aiello and Coppola ran with it.

Roth certainly wasn't going to simply trust a second assassination attempt when the first one failed so miserably. Roth wanted a guarantee. Pentangeli was it. If Michael DID get killed in Cuba then Pentangeli's testimony would be pretty worthless to the Senate Committee and he would go away for many years anyway and Roth's problems would still be solved.

It was a sure thing. Except Roth didn't plan on Vincenzo showing up to shame his brother.

(Incidentally, though it would be easy to take one's time garroting Pentangeli until the cop showed up, the cop popping in at that particular time is really irrelevant. the cop could have popped in two minutes later or even ten minutes later. The only reason for the cop is to find Pentangeli alive with heroin on him so they can start cutting a deal with him)

And one more thing I just thought of: If the Tahoe assassins were "out of New York", they were likely Rosato buttonmen. IF that's the case (and I'm not saying it is) then the Rosatos killing Pentangeli would only serve as a reward for their incompetence in Tahoe. Roth wouldn't really gain much by it but the Rosatos would. Why would Roth reward the Rosatos by giving them permission to kill Pentangeli? Just a thought.
I would imagine the Rosatos owed Roth BIG TIME for screwing up the hit in Nevada (provided, of course, they WERE Rosato buttonmen)

Last edited by GabbyBM; 03/11/13 03:11 AM.
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: GabbyBM] #702134
03/11/13 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: GabbyBM
And one more thing I just thought of: If the Tahoe assassins were "out of New York", they were likely Rosato buttonmen. IF that's the case (and I'm not saying it is) then the Rosatos killing Pentangeli would only serve as a reward for their incompetence in Tahoe.


Roth was behind the attempt and would likely used his own assassins. Probably old members of Murder Inc.

The Pentangeli-Rosato conflict was a local matter and did not involve Michael directly. In fact, Michael supported their claim to those territories in the Bronx and ordered Pentangeli to give it to them. The Rosatos were just pawns in Roth's scheme. They wanted Pentangeli out of the way, and this would weaken Michael's position, which is what Roth intended.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: Sonny_Black] #702154
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Roth didn't want Michael's position weakened. Roth wanted Michael out of the way- exterminated! (as evidenced by two assassination attempts followed by an attempt to send him to prison [and Pentangeli in Witness Protection] for a long time.)

I don't think weakening Michael was the goal. Eliminating Michael would weaken and fracture the Corleone empire by default.
But Michael was strong and resilient enough that weakening his position by killing Pentangeli would be repaired in short time, I would imagine.

Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702157
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Roth ultimately wanted Michael eliminated, but a weakened Michael would have obviously been an easier target. The Rosatos were opportunists, and even though they had no quarrel with Michael, they would have kept a blind eye if he were to be eliminated.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702281
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No doubt. I can't even fathom how easy the Rosatos would have it with Michael out of the way. probably as easy as Tommasino had it after don Ciccio was taken out.

Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: GabbyBM] #702316
03/12/13 09:44 AM
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Lively discussion here, but I have one question. During all this pre- Cuba activity, Fredo gets a phone call from Ola in which Ola asks if this Pentangeli-Rosato thing is on the level. How would Fredo know? Maybe they were testing to see if Fredo had become really scared and already spilled the beans to Michael. In any case Fredo cuts the call short by telling Rosato something to the effect that you guys already have me in enough trouble.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702333
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I doubt Fredo would know, but since he's (supposedly) their only connection to the Corleone inner-circle, it doesn't hurt to ask. And maybe had Fredo not been such a whiny-butt, he could have called Frankie in New York to find out.

Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702335
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You know DT, I've never bought into what some consider Fredo's role in the family to be despite reference to FBI charts. Thus, I don't see Michael discussing the Pentangeli meeting with Fredo. I certainly don't see Michael discussing his Roth strategy with Fredo.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: olivant] #702344
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Why did FFC allow Danny Aiello's ad-lib, "Michael Corleone says hello," to stay in the script. My theory is that it was intended for Richie the bartender, not for Frankie, who was going to be killed. Richie obviously was a civilian, and he was scared ("Anthony, NO-O-O-O!"). The cops would question Richie when they found Pentangeli's body, if the hit had gone according to plan. Richie wouldn't dare give up the Rosatos, so they fed him that line as a way out: "I dunno who the guys were, but one of them said, 'Micahel Corleone says hello.'" That would have sent the cops directly to Michael. And, even though he had an alibi, the newspapers would play it up: "Pentangeli Murder Points to Top Nevada Gaming Mogul."


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: Turnbull] #702347
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Good assessment TB. But I still wonder why the policeman didn't recognize Rosato. If Rosato knew Richie, then the meeting wasn't on neutral territory as someone opined.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702385
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Good theory as well, Turnbull. (I can't imagine allowing mafia hits to occur in one's bar would be good for business)
"Hey officer, I don't know nuthin'. I just work here..."

Since the cop did know the bartender but possibly not the Rosatos, can we assume it happened in neutral territory?

Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702407
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From the II transcript:

CARMINE ROSATO: RICHIE, give us some, (pants?)

RICH: Carmine, no! No, not here! Not here

The Bartender knew the Rosatos and they him.


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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702447
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Then I guess the scene begs to ask what all did Ritchie know and when did he know it? Was his bar the go-to place for garroting? Is this the same bar that Luca ended up in?

bartenders are known for their discretion in business and in pleasure.


Here I thought I was sure about this scene and now I have to reconsider everything I thought I knew. I still believe it was the intent to leave Frankie alive, based on the earlier script. but that doesn't mean that was necessarily the intent with the finished product....

Last edited by GabbyBM; 03/13/13 05:23 AM.
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702543
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The Last Woltz Offline
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The Last Woltz  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
It's clear that the bartender knew the Rosatos. That doesn't mean that the bar was in Rosato territory. I think it's unlikely Frankie would have gone into the lion's den for that meeting. He hardly trusted the Rosatos.

I've never agreed with TB's theory of the "Michael Corleone says hello" line. They never would have committed a murder in front of someone they thought would give the police any information whatsoever. If they thought the bartender would testify honestly, they'd hardly be safe with him telling the police, "The killer was named Carmine and looked like..., and he said 'Michael Corleone says hello.'"

In any case, I doubt they intended that Frankie's body would be found at the bar, so there would have been nothing to connect Richie to the killing.

That line must be either a vestige of an earlier script or an unusually clumsy device to trigger Frankie's betrayal.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702557
03/13/13 11:49 AM
03/13/13 11:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
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olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
That scene is just as perplexing as who opened the drapes. If the Rosatos intended to kill Frankie, then the line was meant for Richie. On the other hand, I just don't see Richie testifying, so what good was that line. I also don't see any reason to believe that the Rosatos knew Richie unless his bar was in the Rosato's territory. Why would they know him?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702651
03/13/13 04:48 PM
03/13/13 04:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 65
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GabbyBM Offline
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GabbyBM  Offline
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The intention of Frankie getting off alive was evident int he 2nd draft of the script. I have a hard time imagining that the dynamics of the Pentangeli hit had changed from one revision to the next. The outline of the story is consistent throughout. Obviously things are trimmed here and there for brevity.

So I find myself believing that Aiello knows this portion of the script and came up with the idea of his line in order to make the new revision of the script make a certain amount of sense. Unfortunately, tagging Aiello's line as an ad-lib somehow renders the whole thing UNclear, rather than clearing it up. Such is the bane of the internet.

MICHAEL
How did they get their hands on
Pentangeli?

HAGEN
Roth engineered it, Michael. He
made Pentangeli think you hit him.
Deliberately letting him get off
alive. Then the New York detectives
turned Frankie over to the FBI. My
informants say he was half dead and
scared stiff -- talking out loud
that you had turned on him and
tried to kill him. Anyway, they
had him on possession, dealing in
heroin, murder one and a lot more.
There's no way we can get to him
and you've opened yourself to five
points of perjury.


I understand that this particular script is not canon while the film is. I don't consider it canon. But I do consider that this script validates and verifies particular motivations behind these scenes. So though the film may not say it, I understand the motivations behind it because of this earlier script.

Last edited by GabbyBM; 03/13/13 04:51 PM.
Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story? [Re: dontomasso] #702662
03/13/13 05:24 PM
03/13/13 05:24 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
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Sonny_Black  Offline
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
The second draft of the script (dated Sep 24, 1973) is also the latest draft as Coppola began filming on October 1, and so can be considered canon. I've never checked this scene out in the script. So this proofs that Roth did in fact wanted Pentangeli to remain alive, and so Tony Rosato's line makes perfect sense.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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