Does anybody think Tessio would have survived this? I don't think so. I think Barzini would have turned right around and had Tessio bumped to even FURTHER solidify his position. It's a time-honored tradition to kill the turncoat.

Hi!

A thread like a dream. Thanks, Turnbull, thanks, guys and girls.

We've already got an advice to take all this not so personally. Now we only miss the traditional statement that "if" and "when" are irrelevant because the film was made this way on purpose.

So I hurry to get a cut in.

In the classic Greek tragedy, which GF is a proud although not lonely heir to, the main hero - so called protagonist - is bound to inflict all sorts of troubles onto the loved ones, and ultimately himself, due to his own faults cut open by the pressure of events.

It's clear why it's dramatically necessary. If the protagonist has no choice, we as spectators may have pity with him, nothing more. If he seems to have a shade of a choice - as he apparently doesn't, in firm author's hands - we start sympathizing with the guy by thinking what we would have done if.

That aside, I deeply sympathize with Michael throughout the Trilogy.

I don't think he's got so much choice in GFI, though - all other solutions most probably meant failure and loss of his father, if only for time constraints.

I don't think he's absolutely inhuman in GFII - we do see his internal struggle at the Superman show.

Finally, I would agree that in a sense Michael was slippin' in GFIII - but, unlike Vito, he was slipping by regaining his human nature, which Vito never ceased to possess.

For me, the phrase: "For I cannot do it anymore" makes up for his sins. As usual, the Gods disagree.

Best regards.

Alexander

Turnbull, great thread!

Just to clear things up. In the film:

Santino mentions to the Don when coming home from the hospital, "We're sending Fredo to Las Vegas under the protection of Don Francesco."

Michael says to Moe Greene, "You took Freddie in cause the Corleone family bankrolled your casino, and the Molinari family on the coast guaranteed his safety."

I assume the family name is Molinari and Don Francesco was the boss. Like Gotti and the Gambino family??

Hi!

You may be right to a certain degree. Actually, saying something like "Don Corleone" is considered an insult, or so I was told. The proper way is to say "Don Vito". Perhaps, this rule was applied here (this time, properly) to "Don Francesco" Molinari.

Best regards.

Alexander

Now you are exactly right!! Tessio have just proven that he is a traitor and will become disloyal when in bad times. He betrayed the Corleones after 30+ years of service. What will make anyone think he would not betray Barzini. If Barzini is smart (and he is!), he should wack him.

Sure he had. When Kay and Mary and Michael are in Sicily for Cavalleria Rusticana Kay says something like: "I see you still have Al." Then Michael says: "Yes, but just to open the doors and bear my suitcases." (Or something like that). But this sounded not very fair to me. I think he was lying on that point, and made it clear for me that he still had buttons to protect his life.

Turnbull? I have to correct ya on that. The scene where Mike was with Moe Green he mentions about the Molinari GFamily protecting Fredo. So in Both the Movie and the Novel Don Molinari was protecting the middle son.

MMFloors? I don't consider Al to be a button man position but more like a position higher than that. But there is no doubt that he supplies all the buttons of the Corleone Family, Ones that are left and he is Mike's right hand henchman

In the film, Sonny tells the Don that "Don Francesco of LA" will protect Fredo while he's learning the hotel business. Later, Michael tells Moe Green that "The Molinari Family on the Coast guaranteed his safety."

#1 If you listen to Sonny when he, Mike, Hagan, Clemenza, and Tessio are talking about Solozzo and McCluskey he says that Solozzo wants a meeting with Mike and that "the promis is that the deal is so good we can't refuse". This is not coincidence. Unlike Sonny, I don't believe he was trying to buy time, rather, he was fixing to kill either Sonny or Michael very soon. He knew that although Sonny "was hot for" the drug deal at first, after the attack on Vito, Sonny would go after him with everything he has.

#2 Impossible, my friend. Michael, while educated in the Ivy League and patriotic enough to fight in WWII, is still Sicilian. Also, the man simply loves his father. He is completely drawn in against his will. There is no man in his situation, besides maybe Fredo , that would act any differently than he did. His father was almost killed, his brother was killed; his family was under direct attack as well as thier Family business. I don't think he was out to save the Family, he was out to save his blood family. Still, after killing McCluskey and Solozzo, he could have stayed out of the business. However, when he moved to Sicily, his first love was killed. This puts him past the point of no return; he now wants to be the Don so that he can take his revenge.

#3 The man was on top of an enormous business boom. In GFIII, he had made his fortune, and so he could pull out easily. Who would pull out of such a wealthy business during a business boom? Also, although he had become a coldhearted Don, his family life was perfect, which was always the most important thing to him. Only after Kay breaks his heart and takes his children and he kills his brother Fredo does he contemplate his life (final scene of part 2) and realize that despite the money and power, nothing could justify what he has done. Again, his family is more important than his Family.

#4 He was not legitimate. That is very clear. He was in the process of legitimizing himself, but he was not all the way out, as evident by his famous quote. He had sold the casinos and given the street duties to the commission, but he never got the chance to completely break off his ties with the commission. When he was going to, Zasa pulled him back in.

Ok Then his first name is Francesco and his last name is Molinari which is what I meant to say

Hollywood hagan,
Are you sure that the Don's family life was perfect? He had a spoiled, maniputive daughter, a rebellious son #3, a stupid punka** son #2, and a hot headed son #1.

Are you sure that Kay took Michaels kids from him? If so, why was she making visiting them at the Tahoe estate?

Don Vito's life was by no means perfect (I know I typed it, but I don't know what I was thinking ), and you point out the flaws in his kids. But who is perfect? Also, no one can doubt the fact that his life was a bit less tragic, and much more honorable than Michael's. Vito was loyal to all of his troopsand them to him. Genco, Clamenza, Brazi, even Tessio. Michael was betrayed by Tessio and his own brother. He removed his surrogate brother as consiglieri. And let's not overlook the fact that Michael did the unthinkable...kill his mother's son, his father's son.

Also, Kay didn't take the kids in GF2, but if you've seen GF3, you'll know what I mean. His kids were estranged for many years, and even when they reconciled, Anthony wanted no part of the business. He was forced to pass the family name to his bastard child nephew!

I don't think Michael had much of a choice in the Sollozo-McClusky thing. Yes, they could've opted to mobilize the their connections to put McClusky in the spotlight, but the situation called for drastic measures. The way I see it, Sollozo was hell bent on getting Don Vito out of the way, and at that point there was no one else in the family who could pull it off except for Michael.

Anyway, great thread Turnbul.

I am reviving this thread because it is such a good one.

The real issue here is that Barzini wanted into the Narcotics business as did the heads of the other families. Only the Corleones did not want to go along. Sollozzo was brought in by Barzini to do the dirty work. After the meeting at the Genco office, Sollozzo would have had to go back to Barzini to tell him the news, and there is no question that he would have had to get permission to stage a hit on the Don (Barzini tells Tom "the Don rest in peace was slippin'. Could I have gotten to him five years ago?" This is an acknowledgement that Sollozzo was far enough down the food chain that there would have been no way he could have tried to kill the Don before.
I say all this because Turnbull's analysis overlooks the fact that "it was Barzini all along." Let's say the Corleones put out the word about the dirty cop, and got Sollozo arrested. This would simply have put Barzini's plans on hold until he could get another "top narcotics man" to replace Solozzo, and to introduce the drug trafficking. From the Corleone's vantage point at the time, it was Sollozzo, not Barzini who presented the immediate problem, but in the long run, Michael was right that the "key" to everything was killing Vito one way or another. He may have been right for the wrong reason, but he was right nonetheless. It is logical that the other heads of the families were trying to avert an all out war after Sonny hit Bruno Tattaglia, and they made the deal to have Mike meet with Sollozo and McCluskey. It was here where Michael crosses the Rubicon, because he knows that only he can get close enough to both of them to shoot them dead.
Once Mike gets back form Sicily, he has lost his wife to the "war," and he has been mentored by Don Tomassino, who was a great influence on his life. I believe Michael thought he could turn the family legitimate, but he eschewed legitimate means to reach his goals -- as Kay reminds him in GFIII his big thing is "reason...backed up by murder." His tragic failure was that he did not understand that the only way his famly could become legitimate was if HE became legitimate. This moral confusion is in evidence in the conversation with Sen Geary when Mike says "We're both a part of the same hypocrisy, but never think it applies to my family."

But why? It's not necessary. He could be perfectly legit, and was actually, as a war hero on the cover of Life magazine, whoever his father was. He intended to be a mathematics professor, and there was nothing irrealistic in that. In the novel Puzo describes some other Mafia dons who's sons were married in respectful families and living legit life. Nothing's wrong with Michael here, and he is smart enough to understand that he cannot be finally legitimate, he's too notorious already. And he wouldn't want it, I believe, there's no sense in it. Becoming legit he would lose his "nefarious power", and Mike is not the man to refuse power that could be used, among other purposes, in his children's favor. I only believe that he'd never behave and act so carelessly as FFC makes him in GF2. He'd be more guarded not to place his and his family's rep in further danger.

The point is Michael made the CHOICE to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey, and once he actred on that he could never go back to the "legitimate" world.Of course the irony is, as he learned later, the higher up you go the crookeder it gets. I think all those years Michael was trying to protect his family and make THEM legitimate, and at the end he realized he had to redeem himself first. This is why he makes the vow to "sin no more," and turns it all over to Vincent whom he tells "you can never go back."
Of course the price of his redemption is his daughter's blood.

as for #1- i dont think they wanted to wait that long and risk the Don being killed, by the time they feed it to the papers and it is well written and action takes place it could be a day or two which could be too long and Solozzo may have suspected something was up, I mean look how long it took to "cool down" after the killing from the papers. Youcant just have one paper put it out u need a few.

and as for #2 Im sure his father didnt ask Micheal, Micheal pronly wanted it, i mean, if Micheal didnt do it im sure maybe Clemenza or TEssio could have took it over. as said by roth "This is the business we've chosen."

Thank you!

Barzini tells Tom "the Don rest in peace was slippin'. Could I have gotten to him five years ago?"
Sorry, dontomasso, it was Sollozzo who made that quote.

I say all this because Turnbull's analysis overlooks the fact that "it was Barzini all along."

In another thread that you commented on, I theorized that it was Barzini all along--but that he kept his hand hidden by encouraging Sollozzo to cite Tattaglia as his backer. Tattaglia, the pimp, would be less threatening to Vito than the more ambitious and capable Barzini. And in other posts, I suggested that Vito's biggest mistake was not realizing that even he couldn't forever prevent the drug trade. I did say elsewhere that he could have temporarily headed it off by arranging for Luca to whack Sollozzo under a pretext and making Tattaglia suck it up. Barzini then probably would have withdrawn, but only temporarily; and would have found another opportunity down the road.
But, to your overall thrust:
Puzo's on your side. One of the most famous quotes in the GF novel is Vito's, "A man has but one destiny." I posted this thread to show that, at least theoretically, Michael had free choices at every stage of his life. But if you believe that crime was his destiny, he had no choices. All of his pitiful attempts to rationalize his "legitimacy" were the work of a criminal mind.

Barzini tells Tom "the Don rest in peace was slippin'. Could I have gotten to him five years ago?"
Sorry, dontomasso, it was Sollozzo who made that quote.
Turnbull, I can't believe I made such a careless mistake Of course it was Sollozzo, when he briefly detained Tom. What can I say except,
Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato and I want everyone here to know you're gonna get no trouble from me!

There has been some discussion here in the past as to exactly what The Turk meant by this statement.

I am of the mind that he was referring to the fact that it was Don C's defenses and regard for his personal safety that was slipping.

After all, the families were in the midst of a long period of peace and prosperity at the time, and were not in their "always on guard" wartime posture.

Look at Sonny's wartime visits to Lucy. Bodyguards on every landing of the building, who completely surround Sonny as he leaves.

Contrast that with Vito's security the day of the assassination attempt: One bodygurad, Paulie Gatto, who is little more than a driver and substituted for by the ineffectual Fredo.

And then the Don wanders off, alone and unprotected, to buy fruit while Fredo waits in the car.

I believe that it is this lack of security and protection to which Sollozzo refers when he says "The Don was slipping. Could I have gotten to him five years ago?"

When taling about Paulie's absence that day, the novel provides a bit of dialogue between Sonny and Clemenza which further illuminates this point:

Sonny: How many times did he stay home the last couple of months?

Clemenza: Maybe three or four times. I always asked Freddie if he wanted another guy but he said no. There's been no cause, the last ten years things being smooth, you know.

[/QUOTE]There has been some discussion here in the past as to exactly what The Turk meant by this statement.

I am of the mind that he was referring to the fact that it was Don C's defenses and regard for his personal safety that was slipping.

I think it was implicit that Sollozo would have had to clear the assassination attempt with the other heads of the five families before he acted. The murder attempt on Vito Corleone would have been something that was unthinkable unless there was an agreement from the very top (Note in GFII how Michael, albeit using a ruse, asks Roth's permission to whack Pentangeli). Also note that later in the movie Barzini is walking up a flight of stairs into a building with NO body guard. This is cause he thought they were in a peacetime situation, as did Vito Corleone when he went to get the fruit.

No question that Sollozzo's attempt on Don C. had the approval of the heads of the other families.

But even with that approval, there is no way that the assassination could have been pulled off unless "The Don (and his defenses) was slippin'"

Plawrence we can certainly agree that the Don, after he got shot was slippin....all the way across the street and almost right into Fredo