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Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? #679456
11/27/12 04:52 PM
11/27/12 04:52 PM
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Frank_Nitti Offline OP
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Some members here probably have real-life experiences with this time period and can share your reflections. Roosevelt is often seen not simply as a war hero, but the saviour of an American economy in crisis. FW Engdahl and others however have criticized FDR's economic policies for decades, turning the saviour idea on its head. In this essay, Some unconventional reflections on the Great Depression and the New Deal:


Quote:

It was fortunate for the historical legacy of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, that the initial military success of the Third Reich in Europe in 1939-1940, and the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December 1941 took attention away from his record in dealing with America’s Great Depression. Had Roosevelt not ended his Presidency as a victorious war President, he would instead be remembered as the President whose policies all but ruined the inherent economic vitality of the American economy for decades after.

A retrospective examination of the economic policies of Roosevelt's New Deal from March 1933 to onset of World War II in late 1941, reveals extraordinary failure and incompetence viewed from the perspective of whether they succeeded in restoring healthy real growth and robust employment to the economy. So blatant was the failure of these policies, over such a period of years, the question must be asked whether in fact a policy other than fostering normal recovery was priority.
New Deal


In this essay he portrays the New Deal as being more related to a socialist ideological agenda centred around the idea of Planned Economy over free Market economy:



Quote:

The core group of FDR's early advisers centered around the figure of Harvard Law School Professor, Felix Frankfurter, an FDR intimate since World War I days. The inner circle included at the outset also Columbia University Prof. Rexford Guy Tugwell, author Stuart Chase, Agriculture Secretary Henry A. Wallace, and a small number of others, including Harold Laski at the London School of Economics. These were the men who had the private ear of the President on economic issues in 1933-1937.

'A new deal'

In his Presidential acceptance speech in 1932, Roosevelt promised "a new deal for the American people." The term was taken from a 1932 book by the same name, "A New Deal," written by Stuart Chase. That book rapidly disappeared from the shelves after Roosevelt's election. Its contents were the currency of White House economic policy discussion by Tugwell and other central planners around the new President.

Chase, along with Tugwell and Robert Williams Dunn, had jointly written a report, "Soviet Russia in the Second Decade," following their 1927 travel to Stalin's Russia.

In his 1932 book, "A New Deal," Chase argued that the earlier transition out of feudalism into what he called laissez-faire capitalism, was essentially over. The era of Trusts, monopolies, capital concentration by large banks, must now give way to central or collective planning. Chase wrote, "modern industrialism, because of its delicate specialization and interdependence, increasingly demands the collectivism of social control to keep its several parts from jamming. We find a government meeting that demand by continually widening the collective sector through direct ownership, operation and regulation of economic functions." He adds, "Competition is perhaps a good thing—in its proper place. Where is its proper place? Collectivism is beyond peradventure on the march."

Much of Chase's book was filled with fulsome praise for Stalin’s Russian model of central planning and its achievements, reflecting the fascination of numerous younger American intellectuals in the early 1930's.

Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #679458
11/27/12 04:54 PM
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Also, "The Great Depression in the United States From A Neoclassical Perspective."

Harold Cole and Lee Ohanian -- demonstrated that, within a mainstream model of the macro-economy using well-rooted premises, the economy should have fully recovered by about 1935. Paper located here.



Last edited by Frank_Nitti; 11/27/12 04:55 PM.
Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #679468
11/27/12 05:48 PM
11/27/12 05:48 PM
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The New Deal looks like No Big Deal from today's perspective--until you realize that, prior to FDR, nearly all Presidents were figureheads. Congress ran what there was of the Federal government, and there wasn't much: the total Federal budget was all of $2 billion in Hoover's last year (1932).

It's true that the New Deal didn't end the Depression--WWII did. But the New Deal created for the first time a commitment by the Federal government to provide direct stimulation of the economy, and direct relief to people who were unemployed and in some cases, starving--and an enormous Federal government infrastructure to carry it out. Elements of a planned economy and socialism were found in the National Recovery Act, but FDR basically rebuilt a capitalist system that had literally crumbled by providing the rudiments of a welfare state and direct government stimulus of the economy.


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Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #679486
11/27/12 07:30 PM
11/27/12 07:30 PM
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ronnierocketAGO Offline
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To add unto Turnbull's last sentence, FDR probably saved America from going Communist. With the old traditional political government philosophy (i.e. "capitalism solves everything") so discredited by 1932, if FDR or any Democratic national candidate that year had simply continued the status quo with useless symbolic token changes...well this was back in the days when ultra-left presidential candidates scored ridiculously high. (Both the Socialist and Communist Party candidates together in '32 polled nearly a million votes)

If shit continued to be quite bad, who's to say the ultra-left doesn't become more attractive to a very desperate jobless electorate who worse have no faith in either party to solve this Depression? To simplify and bolderdash a complicated political story, that's what happened in Germany that same decade, the Weimar Republic being pulled apart by the political extremes (the ultra-right Nazis and ultra-left Communists.) One won, and obliterated (literally) the other.

Instead FDR ushered in a watered down, more Wall Street*/Main Street friendly form of socialism, and pretty much castrated the hope of the Communists/Socialists forever more from being a potent political force in America.

*=Yet many elements were so enraged and frightened by the New Deal, they (allegedly) conspired the Business Plot where they would militarily overthrow FDR and install a puppet executive. One of the alleged members was Prescott Bush, a father (and grandfather) of future U.S. Presidents.

Last edited by ronnierocketAGO; 11/27/12 07:35 PM.
Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #679545
11/27/12 11:35 PM
11/27/12 11:35 PM
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Interesting Ronnie, Turnbull, I'd be eager to hear more on that last point.

Without getting too far into the weeds, it's worth noting some of the New Deals numerous criticisms, if nothing else than to note how similar these are to today's economic debates.

These are a few objections as stated in the article and other sources:

Quote:
-The cornerstone legislation of the early New Deal economic attack was the passage of the National Industrial Recovery Act in June 1933. Roosevelt told Congress the bill would make possible, "a great cooperative movement throughout all industry...." As well, FDR asked for an appropriation of $3.3 billion "to start a large program of direct employment" through public works, administered initially by Harold Ickes' Public Works' Administration.

However, in the midst of a depression and collapsing business confidence, bankruptcy and ten million unemployed, to ask businesses to pay higher wages for fewer hours work and impose anti-competitive restraints on industry was self-contradictory if viewed as an attempt to stimulate private business investment and confidence.

As one critic of Roosevelt policy, Gary D. Best, noted, the NIRA was part of the theory held by those around Roosevelt referred to as the "bubble up" theory of recovery. Here recovery would come by increasing consumer purchasing power, thereby giving industry a market and stimulating new investment. By raising farmer income through the AAA, by forcing industry to hire more workers at higher pay, and employing jobless on government public works, recovery could be generated from the "bottom up."

Unfortunately, this had little relation to reality. NIRA gave stimulus to the industries that needed it least, and ignored the heavy industry most needing it. By imposing higher wage costs on industry, before recovery, the NIRA forced businesses to either accept reduced profits or higher losses, or to raise prices, neither of which was conducive to general economic recovery in an economy based on private market principles.

The NIRA gave the President unprecedented powers over the economy and over business. With initial reluctance of businesses to file voluntary "codes of fair competition" for industry compliance with NIRA on wages, hours and prices, NRA Administrator Hugh Johnson formulated a "blanket code" to cover all industry, which led to a new stock market plunge in July. Significantly, just prior to unveiling of these blanket NRA codes, industrial production had begun to revive, rising from 60% of the average 1923-1925 level in March, to 98% by July 1933, with the stock market recovering in tandem. By August, when the blanket code and threats of its regimentation of business were public, both stock prices and industrial production began a sharp decline, the latter falling back to a 73% level by that November.


Quote:
-The AAA and NIRA, both of which were struck down later by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional, were the high-point of the direct influence of the national planners around Tugwell, Stuart Chase and A.A. Berle.

The Agriculture Adjustment Act was passed in the First Hundred Days by Congress in May 1933. It was the work of Tugwell and Henry Wallace, with the legislative draft language corrected by Felix Frankfurter, who played a central role in leglslative language of all major New Deal bills.

American farming had been in trouble since the end of World War I, and had never readjusted during the 1920's to the recovery of European agriculture and their imposition of protective tariffs. Farm debt per capita was alarmingly high coming into the depression. The AAA took a bad situation and made it worse in terms of distorting long-term market change, and creating a massive, absurd state intervention structure for the first time outside of war, into the nation's production of food and textiles. Indeed, the present distortions of USDA agriculture subsidies and the attendant bureaucratic leviathan of field agents, payments for set-aside and such trace back to the precedent set under the AAA.



Quote:
-John Meynard Keynes told Roosevelt, for example, that rising prices were to be welcomed when they resulted from increased output and employment. But it was impossible, he added, to reverse the process and try to stimulate output and employment by raising prices. The latter only reduced demand and resulted in less rather than more employment. The NRA, Keynes said, "was essentially reform, and probably impedes recovery."

In early 1935, Keynes, while urging FDR to drop his stance of hostile confrontation with the business community, and enlist their friendly cooperation, had proposed that the President embark on a very aggressive program of public spending to come out of the depression. FDR took the precise dollar amount recommended by Keynes, the then-huge sum of $4.8 billion a year, and put it into a Work Relief Bill passed in March 1935.

However, Keynes had also proposed the public spending go for economically useful infrastructure, such as railroad modernization and other infrastructure improvements which would leave the national economy more efficient. Keynes envisioned the government spending on such a scale would be able in turn to revive the most depressed sectors of durable goods manufacture in the economy and prepare the way for sustained private sector growth.'

Instead, while embracing Keynes' proposal as to the amount of government spending, FDR put it into little more than work relief programs under Harry Hopkins' CWA. Even Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau in his private diary, worried that the $4.8 billion "is being flitted away with no centralized plan..." "

Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #679556
11/28/12 01:17 AM
11/28/12 01:17 AM
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ronnierocketAGO Offline
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One must be weary that alot of the knock against the New Deal quite frankly is right-wing revisionism simply and mostly meant to de-legitimize one of our greatest American Presidents, along w/ Lincoln and Washington. (Notice how they usually broadly and sweeping matter of fact statement that the New Deal was a "failure.")

I wouldn't count him in that line-up, but I'm reminded of one liberal counter-argument in recent years regarding Ronald Reagan, that he didn't defeat the Soviet Union, that with it's massive systematic corruption, it would've inevitably collapsed even if Reagan was never President.

True the USSR's bureaucracy was rotten to the core (a key flaw in most if not all dictatorships), which Gorbachev tried (in vain) to reform to keep it from collapsing, which it did anyway. But looking back in academic, foreign policy literature from the 1970s and 1980s, I so far haven't found one person who predicted this "inevitable" collapse as the liberal counter-argument claims. If anything most predictions were doomsday oriented, that the Eastern European unrest would be crushed and at worst, trigger potentially a devastating, disorienting civil war on endless fronts. (Or worse, the Afghanistan quagmire could potentially draw in the world powers and ignite a nuclear armaggedon.)

I'm reminded of the Roy Scheider movie 2010, the sequel to Kubrick's 2001. Pretty good. It came out in 1984, and from the book, Arthur C. Clarke had the USSR still around and in fact both book and movie centered around a potential WW3 brewing back on Earth. Now Clarke was a clever fella, a genius. Yet he didn't see the USSR collapse. Hell the collapse caught the CIA (and the rest of the world) completely by surprise.

Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #679571
11/28/12 02:08 AM
11/28/12 02:08 AM
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I chose those particular papers at random, but the general commentary is more on Neo Classical and Keynesian economics than FDR. It's during the Depression that Keynes's theories were forged. Then virtually ignored in most academic halls from the early 70's until about 2007-08.

Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #679627
11/28/12 12:12 PM
11/28/12 12:12 PM
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The New Deal was a huge deal. Even though it did not get us out of the depression, it recalibrated the course of the country by creating a minimum wage, social security and the concept of necessary federal intervention into national emergencies, especially where states failed or ould not solve problems. In essence it was the actual ratification of the 14th amendment and paved the way to the civil rights act, voting rights act, medicare, medicaid, and ultimately Obamacare.


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Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: ronnierocketAGO] #679818
11/29/12 09:07 PM
11/29/12 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: ronnierocketAGO
To add unto Turnbull's last sentence, FDR probably saved America from going Communist. With the old traditional political government philosophy (i.e. "capitalism solves everything") so discredited by 1932, if FDR or any Democratic national candidate that year had simply continued the status quo with useless symbolic token changes...well this was back in the days when ultra-left presidential candidates scored ridiculously high. (Both the Socialist and Communist Party candidates together in '32 polled nearly a million votes)


One of the contemporary criticisms of the New Deal from the Left was that the AAA, by paying farmers not to produce, and the NRA (with its codes and price floors) were basing the economy on "measured scarcity"--propping up prices artificially by making food and manufactured goods less available and more expensive--at a time when a third of the nation was out of work and many were hungry. That led to the Townsend Plan, Share the Wealth and, as you said, significant votes for Socialist and Communist candidates. The main motivation behind the Second New Deal (ca. 1935/6) was to head off Huey Long and his fellow radicals.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #681124
12/05/12 02:06 AM
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Turnbull, I'm reminded of the Federal agency WPA in '36 performing across the country for the public a stage version of left winger Sinclair Lewis' book IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE, where a Hitler-type President turns America fascist, where the villain at the time was widely seen as a stand-in for Long.

Off-topic, but same said book several decades later inspired a planned TV mini-series that couldn't get the greenlight from the network because the executives thought it was boring, too cerebral. So the producers replaced the Fascists with aliens, which excited the network.

And thus we got V.

Last edited by ronnierocketAGO; 12/05/12 02:10 AM.
Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: ronnierocketAGO] #681278
12/05/12 02:46 PM
12/05/12 02:46 PM
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WPA provided employment for many painters, writers, directors, actors, etc.--many of them lefties. An enormous number of public buildings in America sport murals painted by WPA-sponsored artists. Archibald Macleish, a left-wing poet and playwright, was one of FDR's speechwriters and was his nominee for Librarian of Congress.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #681388
12/05/12 07:25 PM
12/05/12 07:25 PM
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Seems we're largely in agreement - Goverment bailouts usually read more like an obituary than a bail out.

The AAA took a bad agricultural situation and made it worse. At the time when millions of Americans were hungry and ill-clothed during the depth of the depression, the AAA ordered farmers to destroy crops and to kill livestock. Farmers who agreed not to plant specific crops were given direct payment not to grow. The payments for not growing were financed from a tax on food processors—slaughter houses, grain mills and such. In turn consumers were forced to cover the tax cost through higher prices.

The NIRA of 1933 allowed much of the U.S. economy to cartelize, and would be expected to have depressed employment, output,and investment in the sectors the act covered, including manufacturing. Many of these 'codes' provided for minimum prices, output quotas, and open price systems in which all firms had to report current prices. Firms that attempted to cut prices were pressured by other industry members and publicly berated by the head of the NIRA as “cut-throat chiselers.”

And with regards to the FINANCIAL and AUTO bailouts of today, they're not as rosy as the media portrays:

Quote:
General Motors will also have to shed 21,000 union workers and close 12 to 20 factories, steps that most analysts thought could never be pushed through by a Democratic president allied with organized labor.
Forty percent of the company's 6,000 dealers will close, the workers' union will be forced to finance half of its $20 billion health care fund with stock of uncertain value in the restructured G.M. and bondholders, including many retirees, will be forced to take stock worth 10 cents for every dollar they lent the company. The company set in motion plans to close many of its best known brands, like Pontiac and Saturn."
Auto Industry Bailout News - The New York Times


Reads more like an Obituary not a bail out. Compare this to the BANKING BAILOUT:

Quote:
"But it turns out that that $700 billion is just a small part of a much larger pool of money that has gone into propping up our nation’s financial system. And most of that taxpayer money hasn’t had much public scrutiny at all.
According to a team at Bloomberg News, at one point last year the U.S. had lent, spent or guaranteed as much as $12.8 trillion to rescue the economy. The Bloomberg reporters have been following that money. Alison Stewart spoke with one, Bob Ivry, to talk about the true cost to the taxpayer of the Wall Street bailout."
The true cost of the bank bailout | Need to Know | PBS


The amount of money wasted so geneorusly on bailing out the "invisible economy", much of which was forced upon banks who didn't need or want it, could have gone towards actual real reindustrialization centred around the American auto industry.

Then again maybe you think that reindustrialization is just too old fashion for a first world economy like the US.

Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #681391
12/05/12 07:31 PM
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ronnierocketAGO Offline
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From the New Deal to today, what no S&L banking bailout mention?

Re: Was the New Deal Really Such a Big deal? [Re: Frank_Nitti] #681413
12/05/12 07:54 PM
12/05/12 07:54 PM
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True, the S & L Crisis seems to be pretty much forgotten about in light of the more recent events. Today's crisis is really the second time a large government bailout was done because of a federal guarantee. The Savings and Loan Crisis, that started about 1986, required a large bailout of FSLIC (Federal Savings & Loan Insurance Corp). The bailout contributed to the large budget deficits of the early 1990s.

A lot of commercial loans went bad and this along with Fed Chair Paul Volker increasing interest rates to battle inflation (necessary action at the time), caused the problem.

It seems to me there are really a number of similarities between that crisis and the current one, yet I have not seen anyone in the media say anything about all this.

Seems to me that a federal guarantee, often leads to businesses taking risks they otherwise would not take. Instead of investing in things such as affordable housing for families.


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