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The Drapes (again) #679396
11/27/12 10:15 AM
11/27/12 10:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
This idea did not come from me, but it is worth posting and makes a case I do not recall having been made before on this oft discussed topic.

To get to the conclusion we need to ask some questions:

1. Who was smart enough to be counted on by Roth's people to do it?

2. Who would have had unfettered access to Michael's bedroom, and even if caught there by a servant or even Kay could explain?


3. Who was constantly being put down and rejected by Michael?

4. Who understood that the olive oil business was being supplanted by legitimate casinos in Vegas and Havana?

5. Who uderstood better than anyone that the business model of the Corleone family had changed from transactions based on Sicilian omerta and loyalty to a Jewish investor, foregin dictators and crooked Senators?
6. Who understood all the factors in point five beter than Michael?

7. After Michael's death who would replace him as unquestioned head of the family?

8. Who objected to the killing of Roth but not of Fredo?

9. Who could ( and did) get away with it because he was beyond suspicion?

10. Who saw Michael for what he really was?

The person who opened the drapes. Tom Hagen.

Last edited by dontomasso; 11/27/12 11:26 AM.

"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: dontomasso] #679398
11/27/12 11:22 AM
11/27/12 11:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline
Underboss
Danito  Offline
Underboss
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Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Wow!
This brings new light to the Tom-Michael-scene. Tom played Michael like a puppet.
(And it explains Tom's tears. wink )

Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: Danito] #679399
11/27/12 11:28 AM
11/27/12 11:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Also, if you remember, Tom was excluded from the conversation with Johnny Ola. Ola probably knew this would happen, thus keeping Michael in sight while Tom was free to go do what he had to do.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: dontomasso] #679406
11/27/12 01:34 PM
11/27/12 01:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766
South of the Pinelands
MaryCas Offline
MaryCas  Offline

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766
South of the Pinelands
I think it was Merle who unwittingly opened the drapes. He was insulted by Michael and he wanted to humiliate him by opening the drapes so everyone could watch Michael undress. The coincidence here was that the hitmen were going to shoot up the window anyway. The drapes being open was just a convenience.


Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12
Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: MaryCas] #679412
11/27/12 01:46 PM
11/27/12 01:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Nah. Like Fredo, Merle would have opened the drapes in the wrong bedroom. Either Anthony or Mary would have been hit.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: dontomasso] #679438
11/27/12 02:59 PM
11/27/12 02:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
M
Mr_Willie_Cicci Offline
Made Member
Mr_Willie_Cicci  Offline
M
Made Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
Tom Hagen profited even without Michael being killed. Michael makes Tom de facto Acting Boss while he goes with Roth to investigate the shooting. This could allow for more wheeling and dealing with Roth in the background. Who better to help set up Michael with the Congressional hearings behind the scenes than a guy who knew the legal system better than anyone in the Family? Fredo would be useless to the Congressional Hearings unless he himself had testified.

Fredo wasn't in the loop when it came to big family things--He couldn't tell you that Frank Pentangelli was Michael's Capo in New York and Willie Cicci was his top Soldier. Someone like Tom would know all of this.

Tom Hagen was bitter at Michael as shown in the scene where he's contemplating moving away, out of the Family, without even telling Michael. He has no emotional connection to Michael outside of his vestige of Family Loyalty to Vito, which probably fully died when Mama died.

Fredo was weak and stupid and probably the extent of his treachery was giving out info which hurt the Corleones. But he didn't know it was going to be a hit. I think, even as bitter as he was and as naive as he was, he knew opening the drapes would mean a hit, and probably wouldn't have betrayed Michael to death.

Fredo made for a good scapegoat. The only guy who was actually losing money, influence and a place in the new Family business model was Tom. He was being left out of meetings and really had no place in the new Family and was losing money and only regained power and authority when Michael was nearly killed.

He was also the only guy Michael didn't suspect at all and the only one Michael fully trusted and thus didn't investigate besides Fredo.

Fredo wasn't strong or tough enough to kill the would-be assassins, especially so quickly. He couldn't even bring himself to hit his disrespectful wife, much less coldly and brutally take out two hitmen rapidly. And the assassins weren't hired out of New York...Who could hire assassins, not from New York, and also have the toughness to have them killed cooly and quickly but also the fear of being discovered? Who would have the means and intelligence to have the murder of the would be assassins covered up?

I'm sure Tom had men working under him directly, if Fredo did.

Consider how Tom handles the murder of the hooker. Cold, fast, with no real way to connect it to himself.

Keep your friends close but your enemies closer. Tom knew that lesson as well as anyone. Michael's trust in Tom might've been too blind to see it.

I also find it suspect that Tom has no emotion toward the unspoken plan to have Fredo whacked. Fredo was as much a brother to him as Michael or Sonny. Michael at least had guilt. Tom didn't seem to have any emotion over it, or at least try to counsel Michael not to have Fredo killed.

He showed more regret about having Frank Pentangelli kill himself, and more apprehension to Roth being killed, than he did to having Fredo killed.


Last edited by Mr_Willie_Cicci; 11/27/12 03:03 PM.
Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: dontomasso] #679522
11/27/12 08:31 PM
11/27/12 08:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
7. After Michael's death who would replace him as unquestioned head of the family?


Surely not Tom. He lacked the muscle and personal force to be the new boss. He'd also have to face much stronger opposition in Rocco and Neri. No way would they bow to him.

I believe part of Roth's strategy, had the Tahoe shooting succeeded, was to pit the members of the family against each other for succession. That would have had them fighting each other--to his advantage.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: Turnbull] #679625
11/28/12 11:20 AM
11/28/12 11:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
7. After Michael's death who would replace him as unquestioned head of the family?


Surely not Tom. He lacked the muscle and personal force to be the new boss. He'd also have to face much stronger opposition in Rocco and Neri. No way would they bow to him.

I believe part of Roth's strategy, had the Tahoe shooting succeeded, was to pit the members of the family against each other for succession. That would have had them fighting each other--to his advantage.



Au contraire. Fredo was already set up as the scape got. Tom could sweep in, "discover" Fred's meeting with Johnny Ola in Beverly Hills, turn Rocco and Neri on him, and give Roco and Neri more power and money within the organization.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: dontomasso] #679653
11/28/12 05:12 PM
11/28/12 05:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger Offline
Underboss
DeathByClotheshanger  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
Interesting theory that does appear to be pretty well-grounded but Fredo was the traitor, and if he didnt open the drapes he had someone do it for him. Tom's loyalty was unwavering. At least that is how I want to believe it.

Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: dontomasso] #688921
01/08/13 03:46 AM
01/08/13 03:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
G
Gudfadern Offline
Button
Gudfadern  Offline
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Button
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Posts: 94
Great summary! I have to say it sounds possible, even though I don't want it to be like that. I would certainly explain why the camera follows Tom like that in the scene where he leaves Michael with Johnny Ola.

Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: dontomasso] #695195
02/08/13 01:35 AM
02/08/13 01:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8
Hungary
T
The_Doctor Offline
Associate
The_Doctor  Offline
T
Associate
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8
Hungary
Tom would never. If anyone is truly loyal to Michael it's him. This would be like accusing Davos that he betrayed Stannis.

Re: The Drapes (again) [Re: The_Doctor] #695210
02/08/13 05:58 AM
02/08/13 05:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Originally Posted By: The_Doctor
Tom would never. If anyone is truly loyal to Michael it's him. This would be like accusing Davos that he betrayed Stannis.


Exactly!! Great analogy btw. smile


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

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