I couldn't decide whether to post my impressions of the movie in the random movie thread, or the Spielberg thread, so I'm just posting it here.

It's pretty good. Or as I've thought about it since I saw it the other day, a really good movie. In reflection, it's aging well for me. I rather enjoyed it. A little long, a complaint I only make about movies when I feel that drag. (Consider this is only 6 minutes longer than the immensely entertaining SKYFALL, which never felt draggy for me.) But not a serious knock for otherwise this is an impressive, entertaining, engaging "talky" historical political drama. I'm even impressed by how self-disciplined* Spielberg is when he could've gone (as his detractors love to knock) overboard with the sentimental cornyness in a movie about Abraham Lincoln, probably not just America's greatest President, but it's most revered as a martyred American Christ figure, representing the virtue of American Democracy. I even like that argument that Lincoln was one of America's best writers in that century, using few words to explain the idea of America.

I would be shocked if our local Capo doesn't knock this as an "self-assuring nationalistic, Oscar bait halography," (he would write that, wouldn't he?) and he technically wouldn't be wrong. Some might knock it as too weepy still. But LINCOLN isn't a biopic of his life, but instead covers his efforts in the early months of 1865, a technique John Ford used in his classic movie YOUNG MR. LINCOLN with Henry Fonda (which is absolutely worth Netflixing), using a compressed, dramatized segment of a man's life to reveal himself that as the guy that people always knew about him.

This Lincoln isn't a saint, but a shrewed, experienced political operator in his great domestic struggle to pass the 13th Constitutional Amendment to abolish slavery, while also dealing with an inconveniently timed Confederate peach branch offering for a diplomatic solution to the war, which could very well derail the Amendment. A dangerous time, and Lincoln carefully tightropes his administration through it. He willingly deploys every single (dirty) political trick to fight the good fight. Including the morally quesitonable and outright bribery in patronage to secure passage. These scenes are presented with humorous, entertaining sequences and montages of political operative James Spader wheeling and dealing with the lame duck Democrats Lincoln is wanting votes from.

We, at least Americans, are queasy about such underhanded "corrupt" politics to get legislation passed. We really despise year after year when our elected officials (and those who want those gigs) lie. Lincoln tells a big Whopper to the nation at a critical moment. LINCOLN argues that this is all OK because dammmit Lincoln was fighting to abolish mother fucking slavery, and afterwards it was all well worth the troubles, and doing it through the democratic process. (A message that I suppose Capo will question.) Contrast that with the South who started a war that killed over half a million people just to keep their precious private human property. Incidentally such regional cotton capitalists defended slavery using the Bible. Their descendents continue to do the same today in using big government against minorities, women, and Homosexuals. Dixie pride, hooray!

(Using modern analogies, I suppose I'm reminded of Obama's dogfight to pass Obamacare, flawed as it is, it finally brought America into the 20th century on Healthcare. Historically I think of FDR's shadey games in the late 1930s to fight Hitler, and get America into that war.)

For everything else, I like LINCOLN as a quite decent examination of the basic political process of how government can and does work, as painfully slow and usually useless as it is. Your passionate, activist members (usually in the minority) fighting against the majority of career politicians who among everything else want to keep their jobs and thus afraid of acting against the angry irresponsible mob that is the American electorate. It's not about whether you approve or understand this reality, but how you deal in getting shit done through our republican (small r) form of democracy. I loved that scene when the sarcastic abolitionist Congressman Thadeus Stevens (Tommy Lee Jones) has to swallow his pride for the greater good and blurt out on the floor of the House of Representatives the complete opposite of what he believed. I wouldn't be shocked if Jones wins the Supporting Actor Oscar for this.

Sally Field is pretty good as Mary Todd Lincoln. I don't know if she will score an Actress (or Supporting Actress?) nod, but I like how she brings dimension to a character with a historical punchline reputation as a nut. (But none the less, I'm sure dealing with her helped train Abe for his Presidency.)

Daniel Day-Lewis is outstanding and probably will win another Oscar for his work as Lincoln. An astute, talented man that despite his endless arsenal of backcountry hick-flavored anecdotes and stories, is still a detached enigmatic, impenetrable figure (a great resource for his political gaming), always aware and careful about his surroundings. This instructs his public performance as President, Commander-In-Chief, party leader, and even family patriarch, who he treats diplomatically (intentionally or not) like he would office seekers hounding him outside his door (which the movie captures.) The only exception is when he loses his temper with his son Robert (played by Joseph-Gordon Levitt). But otherwise I feel warm regardless for this Lincoln, because I got the sense (as historical record claims) that Abe always morally deplored slavery and apparently progressively evolved in his views on blacks. But he's playing the long game, one step at a time, always behind public opinion, never ahead of it. And like FDR I mentioned earlier regarding his pre-WW2 agenda, he ultimately successfully transformed his country. The unmentioned tragedy in LINCOLN however is Lincoln's assassination. What if he lived to complete his 2nd term? Would he have been able to carefully navigate the politics of post-Civil War America (especially regarding Reconstruction) and one opines that Jim Crow is avoided and just-freed blacks in the South are not doomed into second class citizenship for a century?

It's baffled some viewers who wondered why Lincoln late in the movie was shown being critical of newspaper coverage of his speech about giving freed men the right to vote (and i.e. citizenship), that he said he only supported giving intelligent, responsible black men getting this Constitutional right. But I think Spielberg just wanted to show that before a bullet ended him, he was continuing his great political long game onwards, even if that said misreported speech was actually what convinced Southern nationalist John Wilkes Booth to abandon his plan to kidnap Lincoln and hold him for ransom, and instead murder him. I did love when Lincoln with quie grace told the Southern peace delegation that it's over, and reading Lewis' eyes, you can see how much he wanted to say that reality check for perhaps most of his life.

The movie has a few flaws I'll mention. I sorta wished LINCOLN ended after the scene in the White House on that fateful night in April 1865, his walking away (into mythology) as his immortal words from his Second Inaugural Address would've sufficed. But it went on. I won't say the scenes at Appomatox Court House or Lincoln's deathbed vigil or even that terrific end scene at the theatre (that aint Ford's Theatre) are bad. I wonder if Spielberg, who's been wanting to make a Lincoln movie forever it seems, had dreamed up all these shots he wanted to capture and well shit, he didn't want to not do them when he had the chance. Remember MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL? "Enough already!" Also I found John Williams' score here surprisingly forgettable.

But otherwise, LINCOLN is worth seeing. I give it 4 stovetop hats out of 5. I'm also encouraged with the positive reaction the public is giving it so far. I feel encouraged whenever such a talky historical drama, and not another FX heavy spectacle produced for children, does well.

*=Arguably the opening scene betrays that assessment, the President meeting with Union troops (both black and white) and them reciting the Gettysburg Address to him. Corny as it is, I like it.

Good stuff, RR. Check your PM.

RR,

I guess I'm a little dense. So, does it actually show Lincoln's assassination and do we see JW Booth and the aftermath? AND, is that where the movie ends?

Public radio interviewed Sally Field a few days ago on the film. Though I tuned in somewhere in the middle of the interview, she did a lot of research for the role and said she gained 15 pounds to play Mary Todd Lincoln.



TIS

Abe Likes Sally. He really, really likes her!!!!

We're going to see it tonight, Ronnie. I'll message you tomorrow or Monday with my thoughts.

Apparently, the Grants were invited to go to the theater with the Lincolns, but declined since Mrs. Grant didn't like Mrs. Lincoln. Had he gone with the President, he would probably have been accompanied by several guards which would have made it much more difficult for Booth to murder Lincoln.

No. Instead of showing Ford's Theatre, we cut to another theatre where Lincoln's son Tad is watching a children's play when somebody walks on the stage and erupts with news of the great tragedy. (Which actually did happen, I believe.) Spielberg teases the audience who may've expected seeing a re-enactment of the murder, especially after Lincoln leaves the White House for his fateful engagement at Ford's Theatre. Then we cut to (if I remember correctly) Lincoln's deathbed and then close out on his 2nd Inaugural Address ("...malice toward none, with charity for all.")

Interestingly I remember years back when Spielberg originally was going to make this (back when Liam Neeson was going to play Lincoln), reports allegedly linked cameos from Harrison Ford as Andrew Johnson and Christian Bale as John Wilkes Booth. Neither historical character showed up in the movie that the Beard did make.



LINCOLN Sound designer Ben Burtt* actually went to ridiculous lengths. He got permission from the Obama White House to go inside and record the sounds made by three clocks in residence that Lincoln had, the same for a few doors that apparently (unless I'm remembering this anecdote wrong) leftovers from that era. The same goes for recording a watch that (allegedly) Lincoln had in his pocket when he was assassinated.

So when (if) you go see LINCOLN, consider the sounds of the clocks and watch and doors, probably the same sounds Lincoln heard over 150 years ago.

*=A long career, but his greatest contribution was designing the sounds for the STAR WARS movies. Darth Vader's breathing, the light saber's humming, R2-D2's beeps, all Burtt's hard work.

Cant wait to see this movie.

Thanks for the info RR. I don't recall a major movie about Lincoln in my lifetime and I too look forward to seeing it. Lincoln is one of our most popular presidents but really is somewhat of a mystery. I hope we get to learn more of his personality in the film. Plus, I am interested also in the political atmosphere of the times (can you imagine living during those days) and how it comes off on screen.



TIS

Poor Mary. She witnessed the murder of her husband and buried three of her four sons at the ages of 3, 11 and 18. I would have been driven insane, too!

I didn't know that. That's horrible. I don't know how they died but I imagine during that time there were more diseases without cures and more violence (maybe).


TIS

According to wikipedia, the Lincoln children:

Robert Todd Lincoln (1843–1926) – lawyer, diplomat, businessman.

Edward Baker Lincoln known as "Eddie" (1846–1850), died of tuberculosis.

William Wallace Lincoln known as "Willie" (1850–1862), died of typhoid fever while Lincoln was President.

Thomas Lincoln known as "Tad" (1853–1871), died of pleurisy.

And in Robert Lincoln's case, the only child to reach adulthood and ended up U.S. Secretary of War and later Ambassador to Great Britain, was nearby or present to three Presidential assassinations:

Lincoln was not present at his father's assassination. But he was nearby and arrived at Ford's Theater shortly after his father was shot.

At President James A. Garfield's invitation, Lincoln was at the Sixth Street Train Station in Washington, D.C., where the President was shot by Charles J. Guiteau on July 2, 1881, and was an eyewitness to the event. (Lincoln was serving as Garfield's Secretary of War at the time.)

At President William McKinley's invitation, Lincoln was at the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo, New York, where the President was shot by Leon Czolgosz on September 6, 1901, though he was not an eyewitness to the event.

He later attended the dedication of the Lincoln Memorial with President Warren Harding...who died in office a year later.

Wow, I can't even imagine that. I know the life span was shorter then but we forget the diseases that took young children's lives. I am sure it was not real uncommon then but still, how sad. We are lucky in many ways to be living in this time.



TIS

I'm thankful for the sacrifices made in this country's past so we don't still live in an America with slavery and Jim Crow and prejudices that once were so openly viotile against some minorities like Jews and Catholics and Italians and endless others read as trivial and stupid today. Some are still getting the shit shower, but we're making progress.

Tad's remaining years after his father's death were very tragic. After Lincoln was assassinated, Mary Todd kept Tad locked up in a room with her while she mourned and wept. Rather than being able to mourn the death of his father, he had to comfort his mother, when it should have been the other way around.

On a more positive note, I saw the film this past Monday, and loved it.

Tad had a very sad life in general. When Willie died, he was also very sick with typhoid, and it was feared that he would also die. Tad had some sort of issue, which I've seen described as everything from a speech impediment to a borderline IQ.

He and Willie did have a wonderful time in the White House. The Lincolns rarely disciplined the two of them and they ran wild, even to firing toy cannons at the Cabinet.

Quite true. Only television has taken on the challenge, and the first examples that immediately came to mind are mini-series:

Sandburg's Lincoln with Hal Holbrook and Sada Thompson

Gore Vidal's Lincoln with Sam Waterston and Mary Tyler Moore

Of the two, I definitely preferred Holbrook's Lincoln, despite a poorly designed makeup that made his head look like just what it was without all the prosthetics: a square, cardboard box. (BTW, for the best makeup that can be achieved with a somewhat limited physical subject, see Holbrook as Lincoln in makeup by the great Dick Smith in the North and South miniseries.)

So much for notable Lincoln biographies in our lifetime. The real gem of Lincolns hasn't seen the light of day in 50 years - that was the last time the Lincoln series from the early 1950's show Omnibus was aired. I believe it was called The Abraham Lincoln Story and was written by James Agee. Never been released to home video or DVD, sad to say. A real shame; I remember seeing parts of it when I was six years old. (Lincoln, BTW, was portrayed by Royal Dano, who lent his voice to the original animatronic Disney Lincoln at the 1964 New York World's Fair.)

Yes, I'm also a student of Lincoln portrayals. At one point, I was considering writing a book about the subject, but two other authors beat me to it.

I definitely want to see this film. I've always thought Daniel Day-Lewis is one of the absolute best actors around, so I'm looking forward to this one.


Signor V.

SV, wasn't there an actor, named Raymond Massey, who portrayed Lincoln. I think the film may have been something like "Young Abe Lincoln." The actor had the craggy facial features we associate with Abe.

Absolutely, Kly.

Raymond Massey created the role of Lincoln on the stage in 1938 in Abe Lincoln in Illinois, then portrayed Lincoln in the film version two years later.

He actually played Lincoln several other times, but these usually haven't been shown in many, many years. In 1955, he was Lincoln in a live production of The Day Lincoln Was Shot, featuring a young Jack Lemmon as John Wilkes Booth. His final turn as Lincoln was in the 1962 film How The West Was Won, but he was only onscreen for a minute and had no dialogue.

BTW, I just did some checking, and according to Amazon.com, the series starring Royal Dano is finally scheduled for DVD release on December 11. Hooray!


Signor V.

Forgot to mention: it was Henry Fonda who played Lincoln in the John Ford-directed film Young Mr. Lincoln.


Signor V.

You're thinking of ABE LINCOLN IN ILLINOIS.



YOUNG MR. LINCOLN was from John Ford, with Henry Fonda as Abe.



EDIT - SV beat me to it.

A very rare and difficult feat to achieve!


Signor V.

Has not come out here yet but i will be going to see it. I would bet my mortgage that it wins about a gazillion Oscars!!

I remember the film with Raymond Massey. However, I keep thinking I know Massey more for another character. Maybe tv? I can't quite place it.




TIS

Walter Huston played Abe in D. W. Griffith's 'Abraham Lincoln' (1930).

He played Dr. Gillespie in the Dr. Kildare TV series from 1961-1966. Richard Chamberlain starred as Kildare.


Signor V.

Ahhh That's it!!! I knew I knew him from something else but couldn't place it. Thanks SV


TIS

Thank you, SV and ronnie. I watched Massey's portrayal of Lincoln in a college class, which was an interdisciplinary course that combined history with literature. We would read historic treatments of famous figure, and then view films or read novels/plays to study the manner, in which authors, directors and film writers would condense time, characters, events, etc. to create historical dramas.

LINCOLN was shown at the White House 2 weeks ago.

Now House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) rented out a movie theater Thursday night to show fellow House GOP lawmakers to show it.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/click/2012/11/house-gop-field-trip-to-see-lincoln-150481.html

Do you feel left out ronnie

Nah. I'm sure that House delegation liked seeing a movie where the Democrats are the bad guys.