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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Iceman999]
#667803
09/25/12 08:42 PM
09/25/12 08:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 341
Iceman999
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Interesting points.
I thought that Clemenza was responsible for Vito's safety. If I remembering correctly, there was a scene, another one I think was used in the longer Godfather Saga tv edit, where Sonny retrieves his father's address book from his safe and calls Tessio because he thought that Clemenza may of had a hand in his father's assassination attempt.
As for Sonny's murder, we can see Tom ordering bodyguards to follow Sonny as he races off to see his sister.
One thing I wondered about was the scene in Part II where after the botched assassination attempt Michael tells Tom that he's going to be the Don in his absence. I always thought, given Michael's manipulative nature, that he fed Tom the line about thinking of him as a real brother in order to play on Tom's fears that he'd somehow let the family down during the Sollozo business.
Last edited by Iceman999; 09/25/12 08:45 PM.
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: olivant]
#667806
09/25/12 09:42 PM
09/25/12 09:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
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Iceman, you picked a very revealing bit of dialog when you cited the flashback at the end of II. A perfect indication of Tom's role in the family vs. Michael's controlling nature. That's the key to their relationship, IMO. Michael always wanted to be in charge. Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. Tom was Sonny's choice for brother, not Michael's.
We have gone back and forth, many times, on this board about whether or not Tom could have done more to prevent Sonny's assassination. True, a charging bull elephant couldn't have stopped Sonny from getting in his car, and Tom did dispatch bodyguards after him. But Tom, IMO, should have foreseen that Carlo would want vengeance on Sonny for being publicly beaten and humiliated. In the novel, Tom blames himself for Sonny's death ("He knew now that he was no wartime consigliere...old Genco would have smelled a rat").
But I believe Tom was to blame for letting Michael fall into the Senate's perjury trap. After Michael realizes Pentangeli was alive, Tom says, "Our people with the NY detectives say he was scared, half-dead, talking out loud about how you betrayed him." Where were you, Tom, before you advised your only client to lie under oath? How come you only learned about Pentangeli's survival after Michael committed five acts of perjury?
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Iceman999]
#667811
09/25/12 11:37 PM
09/25/12 11:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 24
Appolla
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
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ok I am late into this debate. As I argued recently I still think Michael and Tom had a brotherly relationship, given that it was not a life insurance to be Mike's brother. It was a strange relationship, not blood related but quite close.
Michael was really small when Tom got into the family (how small is depending on the timeline of the book or the movie) and also Tom was several times the teacher of Michael(we know at least about the time when he was to be educated to be a Don, but I am guessing earlier too). They were both smart and educated so they could probably connect on many levels(like Tom guessed Vito's and Michael's plan), but still they were not equals. Michael indicated a lot of times that Tom is not a Sicilian. Anyway, my biggest evidence for that Michael did not really blame Tom for the death of Sonny and the injury of Vito is that he survived. Michael never tried to kill Tom, what is more made him Don in his absence and put him back as a consigliere to the family. Michael did not have reservations about killing undeserving family members or friends.
I sort of understand why Tom is not responsible for Vito or Sonny. The one thing I never logically understood why Tom did not get killed for was the abortion. That happened under his watch. I though Michael would have killed anyone for that (and that was the only thing that he could not ever forgive to Kay) .
I still think that this (and probably Michael's condone of other mistakes too) is a decision of the author and the director. For the narrative, in the book and especially in the movie part II when Micheal gets more aggressive we need Tom, and his acceptance and understanding of Michael's deeds.
Last edited by Appolla; 09/25/12 11:47 PM.
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Turnbull]
#667827
09/26/12 07:44 AM
09/26/12 07:44 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 341
Iceman999
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Iceman, you picked a very revealing bit of dialog when you cited the flashback at the end of II. A perfect indication of Tom's role in the family vs. Michael's controlling nature. That's the key to their relationship, IMO. Michael always wanted to be in charge. Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. Tom was Sonny's choice for brother, not Michael's.
We have gone back and forth, many times, on this board about whether or not Tom could have done more to prevent Sonny's assassination. True, a charging bull elephant couldn't have stopped Sonny from getting in his car, and Tom did dispatch bodyguards after him. But Tom, IMO, should have foreseen that Carlo would want vengeance on Sonny for being publicly beaten and humiliated. In the novel, Tom blames himself for Sonny's death ("He knew now that he was no wartime consigliere...old Genco would have smelled a rat").
But I believe Tom was to blame for letting Michael fall into the Senate's perjury trap. After Michael realizes Pentangeli was alive, Tom says, "Our people with the NY detectives say he was scared, half-dead, talking out loud about how you betrayed him." Where were you, Tom, before you advised your only client to lie under oath? How come you only learned about Pentangeli's survival after Michael committed five acts of perjury? But did Michael always want to be in charge? It would seem, given the flashback scene at the end of Part II and his introduction scene at the beginning of Part I, that Michael never had any intentions of "getting into the Family business," as Sonny would later say, and that he did so only under extreme circumstances to protect his father and the family. As for Tom and Sonny, well brothers/siblings of the same age have, generally speaking, more in common with each other than they do with younger or older siblings, so that may have played a part in it. Regarding the perjury before the senate investigation committee, Michael, by his own admission, had not taken the "5th," as was his right, and instead denied all the charges levied against him. Would he have done so had he known Pentangeli was still alive? Doubtful. But then again Michael and Tom were up against the arch-schemer Roth, so, in this case, I really don't believe Tom can be blamed for this mess. As for preventing Sonny from leaving that day, could tom really have? After all, Sonny was the acting don, so if he wanted to go, he was going to go. I mean what could have tom done? Order the men to physically restrain Sonny from leaving?
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Appolla]
#667828
09/26/12 08:02 AM
09/26/12 08:02 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 341
Iceman999
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ok I am late into this debate. As I argued recently I still think Michael and Tom had a brotherly relationship, given that it was not a life insurance to be Mike's brother. It was a strange relationship, not blood related but quite close.
Michael was really small when Tom got into the family (how small is depending on the timeline of the book or the movie) and also Tom was several times the teacher of Michael(we know at least about the time when he was to be educated to be a Don, but I am guessing earlier too). They were both smart and educated so they could probably connect on many levels(like Tom guessed Vito's and Michael's plan), but still they were not equals. Michael indicated a lot of times that Tom is not a Sicilian. Anyway, my biggest evidence for that Michael did not really blame Tom for the death of Sonny and the injury of Vito is that he survived. Michael never tried to kill Tom, what is more made him Don in his absence and put him back as a consigliere to the family. Michael did not have reservations about killing undeserving family members or friends.
I sort of understand why Tom is not responsible for Vito or Sonny. The one thing I never logically understood why Tom did not get killed for was the abortion. That happened under his watch. I though Michael would have killed anyone for that (and that was the only thing that he could not ever forgive to Kay) .
I still think that this (and probably Michael's condone of other mistakes too) is a decision of the author and the director. For the narrative, in the book and especially in the movie part II when Micheal gets more aggressive we need Tom, and his acceptance and understanding of Michael's deeds. It's interesting that Michael says to Kay at the beginning of the first film that he thinks Tom is going to be made consigliere. You make a good point about Michael not blaming Tom for Sonny's death, for if he had, he surely would have killed him or required him to make an act of atonement like Rocco had to for his failure to prevent Michael's assassination attempt in Part II. As for Kay's abortion, I can't see how Tom could be blamed for that when Kay had it done in secret.
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Appolla]
#667884
09/26/12 02:45 PM
09/26/12 02:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Good points by everyone, and I won't repeat my views on some of the specifics such as whether or not Michael blamed Tom for Sonny and the attempt on Vito, as well as the perury trap.
The essence of the relationship aside from Michael's desire to control and manipulate everyone was there was a latent sibling rivalry between the two. As the youngest son, and the most rebellious, Michael grew up seeing Tom being close to Vito, probably closer than nimself, Fredo and possibly Sonny, and this was something Michael resented. He understood Tom was bright and a talented lawyer, but this probably made him resent him all the more.
One of the telling lines of all this is when he tells Kay that Tom is going to be named consigliere...when he does so he makes it a point to say that Tom is not a Sicilian, and he says it in a disparaging way. He even looks away from Kay when he says it. Implicitly he is saying he doesn't think Tom is the right choice, but instead is getting the job because of Tom's closeness to Vito.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: dontomasso]
#667916
09/26/12 04:33 PM
09/26/12 04:33 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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One of the telling lines of all this is when he tells Kay that Tom is going to be named consigliere...when he does so he makes it a point to say that Tom is not a Sicilian, and he says it in a disparaging way. He even looks away from Kay when he says it. Implicitly he is saying he doesn't think Tom is the right choice, but instead is getting the job because of Tom's closeness to Vito.
While it's easy to put that interpretation on Michael's comments in light of what came later, I think Michael's demeanor in that scene says otherwise. While he does add the caveat of Tom not being a Sicilian, to me Michael seems approving of the selection of Tom as consigliere, and somewhat proud of him as well. The flashback scene notwithstanding, I think Michael's attitude toward Tom changed as Michael himself changed over the years.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#667928
09/26/12 06:33 PM
09/26/12 06:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
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LW, I think you missed a few things. For one, Michael introduces him not as his brother, but as Tom Hagen. He could have easily said "My brother Ton Hagen." In huge contrast, he introduces Fredo as his brother:"my brother Fredo"; and Sonny: "when my brother Sonny was a kid, he found Tom Hagen in the street." Not Tom, but Tom Hagen and, again "my brother".
Then later: "He's a good lawyer. Not a Sicilian, but -- I think he's gonna be consiglieri." That's hardly an endorsement.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Turnbull]
#667941
09/26/12 07:11 PM
09/26/12 07:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 341
Iceman999
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Slightly OT, but I thought it interesting that Vito brought Tom to the Commission meeting to make peace with Tattaglia. It would seem that Vito still had some confidence in him at that point.
Last edited by Iceman999; 09/26/12 07:11 PM.
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Iceman999]
#667950
09/26/12 08:09 PM
09/26/12 08:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 24
Appolla
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 24
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Iceman999 : if you research the net you will find the original script for Godfather III by Puzo. They remain close, and Tom is with Michael till the end.
I am not sure Vito ever lost trust in Tom. He told Michael that Tom will understand their plan& why he is out for the time being. Not having Tom around was a luxury for Michael, that he could do because Vito was there to help him. But at any rate during the commission meeting Tom was the consigliere and he was the one who knew about the complete affairs of the family. It would take him years to teach all that to Michael(in the movie we skip this time).
Last edited by Appolla; 09/26/12 08:30 PM.
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Turnbull]
#667986
09/27/12 07:16 AM
09/27/12 07:16 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
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I think he was giving Kay a tour de force on the family in that scene. Yes, and at the same time FFC gives us the same tour de force. It's difficult to have all the names said again and again in such a scene without it sounding a little awkward. When I was watching the movie for the first time, I was still losing track of some characters.
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Re: Michael's Relationship To Tom
[Re: Iceman999]
#668041
09/27/12 04:20 PM
09/27/12 04:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
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Slightly OT, but I thought it interesting that Vito brought Tom to the Commission meeting to make peace with Tattaglia. It would seem that Vito still had some confidence in him at that point. Not only that, but it would have been unthinkable for Vito to show up alone at that meeting, when everyone else had their consigliere and possibly other advisers present. It would have made Vito look weak: one son dead, second son out of action in Vegas, third son being hunted in Sicily. Very bad strategic move if Tom hadn't been there.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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