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Tom the captive #656613
07/23/12 02:42 PM
07/23/12 02:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
In real Mafia families, the consigliere is a high-level man, usually a caporegime with his own troops and rackets that bring him money. The Don appoints him consigliere as an added honor and because he values his advice. He’s never on salary, never a lawyer and never anything but a full-blooded Italian. Of course the Don can do what he wants. And Vito broke the mold with Tom Hagen for important reasons, mostly having to do with his own security:

Many people here have wondered how the Corleones, the biggest family in New York, could have gotten by with only two caporegimes. But the novel points out that Vito guarded himself against plots by having only two, and keeping them far apart—Clemenza lived at the Mall, Tessio was on his own and seemed to operate almost independently, the better to confuse his enemies and to keep the two from conspiring against him. He had raised Tom as a son from a tender age, assuring that he would be as loyal as Sonny. He sent Tom to law school to strengthen his power base with judges and politicians—as a fellow lawyer and fellow “Irishman,” Tom could be more effective and less an object of scorn among those bigots than an Italian. Tom probably drew a salary from Genco Olive Oil and got handsome cash gifts from Vito. That way he didn’t have to to have soldiers and rackets, which assured that he wasn’t viewed as being in the “muscle end of the business,” and also meant that he’d never develop a power base that could be used against Vito. Nor would he have any assets of value to potential traitors in the family. He was, in effect, Vito’s captive.

That worked to Tom’s advantage when Vito was alive. But under Michael, Tom was not a son, or a brother, but “our lawyer.” Although Michael valued Tom and used him when he really needed him, Tom was never on the same ground as he was with Vito and Sonny. By the end of II, Tom was reduced to an object of Michael’s scorn. When Michael said, “I thought you were going to tell me that you’re leaving to become vice president of the House and Hotels,” and, “You can take your wife, your family and your mistress and move to Vegas,” he was not only belittling Tom, he was mocking him. “Why do you hurt me, Michael—I’ve always been loyal?” Tom was reduced to crawling, while Neri, so obviously the source of that info, smirked. What Michael was reminding Tom was that he couldn’t leave the family—he had nothing on his own, and had he tried, Michael would have him whacked rather than let him get out of his gilded prison.

Your thoughts?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Tom the captive [Re: Turnbull] #656615
07/23/12 03:00 PM
07/23/12 03:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger Offline
Underboss
DeathByClotheshanger  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
He was a captive to Vito's generosity. Tom was the most loyal because he wasn't a Corleone by blood. He came from nothing, which is why he could have never turned against the family. Vito probably did have some ulterior motives when taking Tom in, but they probably didn't go that far into the future.

I also think that Tom is Puzo's representation of Vito's generosity and kindness, that he would take in a non-Sicilian and raise him like his own. I think that it's perhaps Vito's strongest characterization and the one that sets him the most apart from his advisaries.

Michael and Tom have been discussed a lot recently, so I find it more interesting to focus on Tom/Vito.

Re: Tom the captive [Re: Turnbull] #656617
07/23/12 03:03 PM
07/23/12 03:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
TB, as usual I pretty agree with all of your post. However, I believe that Tom was not captive in the usual sense. To the extent that he was, Tom allowed himself to be captive. I've always maintained that Michael felt no fraternal affection for Tom and that he blamed Tom for not protecting the family. That was why he manifested almost undisguised contempt for Tom as exemplified by the Michale's quote to Tom that you stated.

However, Clemenza didn't live at the mall and only two capos was an authorial device that Puzo employed to keep things uncomplicated.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Tom the captive [Re: Turnbull] #656619
07/23/12 03:13 PM
07/23/12 03:13 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
Underboss
Sonny_Black  Offline
Underboss
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Posts: 3,568
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
When Michael said, “I thought you were going to tell me that you’re leaving to become vice president of the House and Hotels,” and, “You can take your wife, your family and your mistress and move to Vegas,” he was not only belittling Tom, he was mocking him. “Why do you hurt me, Michael—I’ve always been loyal?” Tom was reduced to crawling, while Neri, so obviously the source of that info, smirked. What Michael was reminding Tom was that he couldn’t leave the family—he had nothing on his own, and had he tried, Michael would have him whacked rather than let him get out of his gilded prison.

Your thoughts?


I interpret this as a provocation; either forcing Tom to leave and at the same time testing his loyalty. After Fredo's betrayal, Michael did not trust anyone anymore, not even his own wife. Pretty much anyone had become disposable to Michael except his own children. That's why he put Tom on the spot. It was for selfish reasons only, he didn't care about hurting Tom, because he had nothing to lose for he had already lost his family.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Tom the captive [Re: Turnbull] #657326
07/26/12 10:09 PM
07/26/12 10:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 578
D
danielperrygin Offline
Underboss
danielperrygin  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 578
Why did Mike leave the family the Tom? Why?

Re: Tom the captive [Re: U talkin' da me ??] #657376
07/27/12 12:21 PM
07/27/12 12:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
I don't think Tom saw himself as a "captive," but rather a wannabe brother to Michael and Sonny. Tom always chafed at Michael keeping him out of the loop, and there's a foreshadowing of the distance between them in the flashback scene at the end of II when Michael announces he's joined the Marines. Tom tells Michael that he and Vito went to a lot of trouble to keep him from being drafted, and how he and Vito had discussed Michael's future. Michael is furious and sneers," You discuss MY future with MY father?"


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Tom the captive [Re: dontomasso] #657387
07/27/12 12:48 PM
07/27/12 12:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
I don't think Tom saw himself as a "captive," but rather a wannabe brother to Michael and Sonny. Tom always chafed at Michael keeping him out of the loop, and there's a foreshadowing of the distance between them in the flashback scene at the end of II when Michael announces he's joined the Marines. Tom tells Michael that he and Vito went to a lot of trouble to keep him from being drafted, and how he and Vito had discussed Michael's future. Michael is furious and sneers," You discuss MY future with MY father?"


DT, you've pretty well summarized their relationship. I've always maintained on this Board that Michael developed an antipathy toward Tom that was born, in part, from what you cite in the flashback scene. Add to that Tom's failure to protect the family. One could even throw in the seeming favor that Vito showed toward Tom as perceived by Michael. Although Micahel chose to estrange himself from his father, he may have rationalized some of that estrangement by blaming Tom. It starts early in the film: why would Michael introduce "Tom Hagen" to Kay?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Tom the captive [Re: olivant] #657391
07/27/12 12:57 PM
07/27/12 12:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
You are correct Oli, and we see this again in I where he embarrases Tom by saying he's not a wartime consigliere, and when Tom says he'd like to help, Michael says "You're out!"
It Vito's kind words to mollify Tom to some extent.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Tom the captive [Re: dontomasso] #657406
07/27/12 02:22 PM
07/27/12 02:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
I agree that Vito was generous in his treatment of Tom. He not only raised him as a son, but the novel says he offered to stake Tom to whatever career he wanted, no strings attached, no quid pro quo. Tom asked to work for Vito. And, Tom (presumably for reasons relating to the dissoluteness of his own parents), was almost pathologically dependent on the Corleones to be his family. I think the novel said he had nightmares, and he cried when Solozzo told him that Vito was dead. So, in many ways, Tom chose captivity.

But, the arrangements Vito, and later Michael, made for Tom assured he'd never stray off the range or get any big ideas on his own. It was a perfect arrangement for them, and for Tom under Vito. Not under Michael.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Tom the captive [Re: Turnbull] #657409
07/27/12 02:27 PM
07/27/12 02:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
But, the arrangements Vito, and later Michael, made for Tom assured he'd never stray off the range or get any big ideas on his own. It was a perfect arrangement for them, and for Tom under Vito. Not under Michael.


Very good assesssment. Tom was a cuckold. That may seem a little disparaging, but Tom did allow Vito to cocoon him.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Tom the captive [Re: olivant] #657595
07/28/12 12:06 PM
07/28/12 12:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Well the whole point is that Tom never had any big ideas to do anything on his own. He wanted to be part of the Corleone family


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Tom the captive [Re: Turnbull] #667429
09/23/12 08:37 PM
09/23/12 08:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 24
A
Appolla Offline
Wiseguy
Appolla  Offline
A
Wiseguy
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 24
I have a very different opinion on the Vito-Tom-Michael relationship than most of the people on this board.First of all I think Vito made a good bargain by taking in Tom as he was smart but he was not doing it on purpose. Tom could have chosen any other line of work but he wanted to be part of the organization. He rose pretty high too so I do not think his loyalty and skills went unhonored or unnoticed. In the book he seems to be fully aware of his situation and very satisfied with it.

Secondly, I think that Michael and Tom had a closer relationship than the majority opinion here. Tom was the only one who understood Michael and he knew this(even if Tom did not like everything Michael did).I think even Michael had to have someone like that around. For me the funeral scene in the book and the movie tells the same- Tom understands everything and supports Michael.

Also I always thought that in Godfather II when Michael yells at Tom is to tell him what is going to happen (with Frankie and Fredo too) and asking him whether he will go along with that. This was not a happy conversation but I see the tension at a different place than most people. And Tom says yes, and goes to deal with Frankie personally.

From Puzo's screenplay for Godfather III that was never made because of Robert Duvall it seems that old Michael and old Tom are in a brotherly relationship. Of course this does not mean that they always had a perfect relationship as with real brothers.

Last edited by Appolla; 09/23/12 08:39 PM.

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