Is it trues that Cosa Nostra was able to breath a little, lick wounds and build back power after 9/11? I've heard people call the last decade resurgence. Is the Federal Government getting back into pursuing these individuals? Also, why do they waste the excessive time, money, etc for a group that, without Hollywood, are a bunch of middle-old aged street toughs? Also, is there any sustainable future for the mid size families (Chicago, Detroit, etc), or is it all over?

Did you just finish five families? The Vinny TV and Michael Persico cases kinda show me a trend that the better govt lawyers are being used oj terrorism.

Discussed million times,u should search forum a little.I will try to find some threads and put links here.

The Downfall Of La Cosa Nostra

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=630984#Post630984
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Recent Small Family Cases

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=655407#Post655407
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Power currently compared to 1980's

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=654797#Post654797
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Question on present day Chicago Mob(With Chart)

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=655181#Post655181
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Everything u should know about Chicago Mob Today

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=650349#Post650349
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"Stabilization" is probably more accurate than "resurgence".

An actual resurgence would result in a smackdown by some ambitious, careerist prosecutor right quick. Look what happened when Massino pulled it off somewhat for a while.

It's true that much of the FBI's manpower against the LCN was moved to anti-terrorism after 9/11. And even after more than a decade later, the numbers of agents on mob cases are nowhere near where they were in the 1980's and 1990's. That said, there really hasn't seemed to be a decline in mob cases. They're still coming at a continual pace. There's a concern that the feds shouldn't drop the numbers too low but it's not like the same amount of resources are needed today either. In short, I'd say it gave the mob some breathing room. To say it's been a "resurgence" is an overstatement though.

Well, the Mafia isn't really considered a huge priority outside of New York anyway. And, as said above, even there the federal resources against it have been diminished over the past decade. I've never understood why some people think it's a "waste" of time or money to investigate the Mafia. The fact most mob guys are older doesn't change the fact that they're involved in organized crime, commit assaults and murder, traffic in drugs, corrupt unions, etc.



I guess it depends on what you mean by "sustainable future." Will the remaining smaller families outside New York (New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Chicago) be gone tomorrow? No. But you can see the writing on the wall. I don't think they'll be around a long time from now like the NY families. They don't have the manpower that is available in New York. Nor the diversification of operations. And you can already see the hierarchical structure start to break down in these smaller families.

Don't know if there's a future in the mid size families but imo

Detroit is not one of them. To me the mid sized families are -

Chicago,Philadelphia and New England

Agreed. Detroit isn't on the same level. But I would include the DeCavalcantes with the other families above. At least in terms of size.

Are they still actually doing anything? Yeah, in terms of "members still alive" they're still pretty big. But hey if you go by that metric, Buffalo is also fairly sizable. I think the DeCavs might as well be nonviable in that there doesn't really seem to be a cohesive structure anymore. I haven't seen anything about who their administration and capos are in years, for example.

How many members are there roughly in NJ? I'm in agreement

with you just thought the amount of convictions that came along

with Riggi brought them down to the same level as Detroit. Jmo

The latest estimates still put the family at about 40-50 members total. And the big indictments in the late 1990's and early 2000's were devastating to the family. You can see it by the relatively low level activity over the last decade. The family seems to have been running on fumes. But I'm not ready to write them off just yet. And I wouldn't put them at the level of Detroit. Not yet anyway.

Would you put them at the same level as Chicago or Philly?

In terms of made members, they are comparable to the New England and Philadelphia families. But New Jersey is said to have a smaller ratio of associates. So, in terms of total manpower, they're slightly smaller than those families, as well as Chicago. And they haven't been as active as those other families in recent years.

And just for the record, these are the latest estimates I'm aware of -

New England: 40-50 members, approx. 100 associates

New Jersey: 40-50 members, approx. 50 associates

Philadelphia: 40-50 members, approx. 100 associates

Chicago: 25-30 members, a little over 100 associates

Sorry for asking a question you'd already answered. Why are

Chicago one of the largest while also having among the least

informants...equal with the DeCalvacantes (if spelled right lol)?

Well, Chicago isn't one of the largest. They're one of the four smaller families remaining, along with New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia. Compared to the 5 New York families, these other ones are rather small. That said, Chicago has traditionally been a relatively disciplined and secretive family. That's part of the reason for their small number of informants. But also because it doesn't appear they started using the traditional ceremony until the 1970's, so there weren't any technically made guys to flip prior to that time.

Sorry my keyboards broke so i'm using an on screen keyboard.

I was typing after you posted this lol. Anyway Chicago 25-30

may i ask where this is from?

In 2007, the FBI stated they had 28 "made" members of the Outfit (see link below)

Other article in the last few years have said 25-30, though some said as high as 50. But the 28 figure seems the most believable to me. It's more exact and is not just a rounded-off estimate.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=5681103

Thanks alot for the link.

It has also been pointed out before how there is likely some guys in the Outfit who, though not technically made, have membership status. A guy like Joey Lombardo, for instance. You'll notice he wasn't cited as a "made" member in the Family Secrets case. And that's probably because he was already a high-ranking figure in the Outfit before they instituted the fire and blood ceremony in the 1970's or whatever.

Your numbers about the amount of made guys in Chicago are about right, on the street that is. I'd peg the total counting those in prison somewhere between 50-75. The one thing I completely disagree with is the amount of associates. That's sort of the lifeline right now, many "associates". Its like the Genoveses where nobody actually knows who runs what, and for good reason. We all saw what 1 made guy can do, ala nick calabrese. Safer to have a core group you trust rather than a million stunads running around with buttons ratting on each other like in NY. That's why overall I'd rank the outfit up there with the Genoveses/Gambinos in terms of strength. Having a lot of "made" guys doesn't mean you're strong...quality over quantity.

You can disagree all you want but they are not my numbers. They are the FBI's numbers. And nobody is going to know more than the FBI. At least not any of us posting on an internet forum.

Second, the 28 member figure was total made guys. Adding in the associates, which were said to amount to a "little over 100," the total manpower of the Outfit - according to the feds - is about 150.

Third, there's certainly something to be said for keeping a smaller core, which the Outfit seems to have done. But part of their smaller size has also been due to general attrition. They don't have the recruiting pool the New York families do. A more cohesive, secretive approach will help things in the short run. But it won't help things in the long run as more guys die off.

Fourth, there really is no comparison between the Outfit and the two largest families in the country - the Genovese and Gambinos. Going by the official estimates again, either one of those two New York families are eight times the size of the Outfit. They are also far more diversified in their operations and operate far more widely. Using the same criteria you do in saying the Outfit compares to these families, one could also argue the Detroit family is as powerful as the Genovese or Gambinos.

Fifth, it's generally fairly well known who runs what in the Outfit. The exact titles for some of the guys may not be totally clear, at least to us, but it's usually the same names who are said to be in the upper and mid-levels of the hierarchy. It's not like every Outfit guy is a master criminal , easily evading the feds, while NY guys are all a bunch of morons.

Chicago may not have as many made members, but their associates are bigger than most made guys in other cities like New York. I agree also with the quality over quantity point. Seems like the Genovese Family is most overrated one.

Exactly. Guys like the german and harry aleman (associates)in their heyday could have run circles around a lot of the capos/soldiers/associates in NY. Plus as you said, there aren't a lot of "made" guys here anyway. Chicago doesn't go handing out buttons to anyone willing to kill or make large sums of money. Just look at history; How many made guys in Chicago have flipped? One? Two? How many in NY? Countless. Yes Chicago is smaller, but the always have had their organization much more streamlined and efficient. Plus, I'd take a boss like Accardo/Joey Doves over ANY of the old time five family bosses. But truth be told, Profaci/Gambino were cut of the same mold as the Tuna...wise and cautious, but stone-killers.

I still think the Genoveses are the most powerful in the country though, they have organized labor by the balls....but so does the outfit here in Chicago.

The above alone pretty much shows me you haven't done jack in the way of research except perhaps read a few outdated books on the Chicago Outfit. Don't just make generalized, blanket statements. Actually back them up with something. What associates are you talking about? And don't give me old names of guys who are long dead or yesterday's news.

Furthermore, on what basis are you saying the Genovese family is overrated? I can show you a list of comments as long as your arm by law enforcement officials, organized crime experts, and former mafiosi who say otherwise. I can show you a list of indictments as long as your leg that shows the Genovese family, besides being the largest family, is also the wealthiest and most diversified. There's a reason they're considered the top family in both New York and the nation.



I'll tell you the same thing I did jace. Schweihs is dead. Aleman is finished. Don't give us names of guys like that as your examples. Or Accardo for that matter. Because it only proves you're going on outdated info.



The Genovese certainly has the most labor racketeering left. I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to the Outfit. There's actually been relatively little in the way mob activity in the unions in Chicago in recent years. DiForti, Matassa, the Carusos, Lombardo Jr., Caravetta, etc. were all kicked out of the Laborers Union in the 1990's and early 2000's. The RISE investigation into the Teamsters union showed primarily limited, residual influence. There were some mob-connected companies involved in the "Hired Truck" scandal but they were a minority. So what are you talking about?

So true.
In this case, we need to rely on the FBI numbers. If there is anything we could accuse them of when it comes to numbers overall, that would be of inflating the numbers and making the Mafia look like being a bigger threat than it actually is, and not of deflating (if that´s the right word...?) the numbers.
There have been several forum members in here who have stated things about the outfit, exalting it. Their arguments have been based on "word on the street ..." or "my uncle who is a member has said that ...." and what not. That doesn´t cut it. The problem with these forum members is that none of them have been able to present solid evidence or documentations to back them up, although we´ve asked for them numerous of times. They simply don´t come up with anything. I, for one, would love to see any kind of proof. And I mean that in a most humble way.
Frankly, I´m kinda surprised this argument is still going on.