This subject really interests me. The way i see it the way the structure of te Outfit goes made men are more like a capo in NY since they seem to run crews made up of the "members" of the Outfit. These "members" arent the associates of the family but are more like made men in NY, and the associates fill in after that. This is also why i think the membership numbers in reports and articles are always different.

I view it the same way the feds do. A made guy is the same thing, wherever you're talking about. It means they've gone through the traditional blood and fire ceremony. Apparently, there were 28 of these guys in Chicago back in 2007 before Tornebene died.

However, as I've pointed out, there are guys who are not technically made but have membership status. A guy like Joey Lombardo was not specified as a made member in the Family Secrets case. But that was probably because he was already high up in the family before the Outfit started using the ceremony.

When looking at the Family Secrets indictment, it's also important to notice the difference the feds made between somebody being a "member of the Oufit" (meaning they are made) and them simply being a "member of the ________ crew." The latter doesn't mean they're made.

In the end, however you want to define who's a made guy and who's not, the number stays pretty much the same. 27 guys who have gone through the ceremony. Plus a little over 100 (according to the feds) others who are technically associates. So, in the end, you're looking at a total manpower of maybe 150.

Yeah, it's an interesting topic. Most interesting to me, is that they went from not having an actual ceremony to having the traditional NY ceremony to...who knows what they do now if anything.

I believe that's why alot of old guys argued that they they weren't made and said they never had there finger pricked or had a card burned in there hands. I believe they were made, in the Chicago way, not the the way the FBI was trying to say.

IIRC, Aiuppa started it but I thought Carlisi had some sort of push for it because I believe he originally was from NY. People said Giancana thought it was a joke.

Yeah, being made is being made, but it means different things in different cities.

There was always a big argument on another board about whether Marco D'Amico was made. People said he was the #2 right now or at least in charge of all the gambling in Chicago or the #2 on the NorthSide, basically No Nose's street guy. People would argue that if he had/has all that power, he would have to be made. Others would say being made doesn't matter, he has all the respect. So who knows.

IMO, being made in Chicago is always going to be weird because you have gone from no ceremony to a ceremony to...who knows. Old guys who had no ceremony probably don't care if people don't think there made, they probably like it. Add to the fact that you had non-italians who had prominent roles, and that makes it even stranger.

If I had to guess, the outfit has probably stopped having the ceremony now because of Nick Calabrese's testimony. Would make sense. There is no need to have made guys any more. Just attracts attention. Why not have zero made guys. Kill the outfit. You're not competing against anyone. Being made has never been the end all anyways, so get rid of it.

Again, this is just my rambling opinion.

Actually, the Outfit has become more Italian with time. It was back in the earlier years that they didn't use the ceremony and non-Italians could rise up high in the hierarchy. Not anymore. They may no longer use the ceremony but that could be because they're not making anybody period. And you won't find any non-Italians high up in the Outfit. It's a lot more like the other LCN families than people think.

The family, I believe, has become more Italian due to a less desire of other white criminals to join it

Much like the Irish and Jewish OC groups in general faded away, I think the non-Italians in the Outfit did too. But it continued, like the other LCN families, because the Italians still had that ongoing tradition that perpetuates itself, which the others didn't.

Love that interchange with Phil Leotardo...says alot...

This article, in the comments section a guy named the don describes the family tree in a way that gives me the impression i have about the Outfit.

"This is not a complete list but represents about 75% of the made guys. There were probably around 75 total during this time with maybe 225 soldiers working full time under them. This is from where the 300 man estimate comes from."

Maybe it wasn't intentional, but notice how the guy who made that post is already making a difference between "made guys" and "soldiers." When, by definition, a soldier is a made guy. If he had said "associates," that would have been more correct. At least as far as semantics go.

See, I have to agree with DPG. There's something about Chicago and the relevant dearth of info. It's also interesting how Chicago guys in particular often make the claim that their hometown's mob is so much different then the rest of the country's like it's the one city that bucks the general trend. That if the Feds have it wrong just once, they've got it wrong about Chicago.

As far as the Italianization of the Outfit's one-time multicultural make up, the last non-Italian 'member' of note to my knowledge was Frank 'The German' Schwiehs. Apart from him, it seems like nearly every other major non-Italian associate was eventually flipped or murdered (William Dauber, Daniel Seifert, Emil Vaci) I may be wrong on this, but Id agree with wiseguy when he points out that the Outfit became more Italo-centric in modern times.

Tracking all indictments since 2000, as I like to do, there's enough info to keep tabs on the Outfit. But if there does seem to be a dearth of info to some, I would attribute it to the same reason for a dearth of info on any family - there's not as much going on as some would like to believe.

People seem to think the Outfit is such a big mystery. Or, as Mickey just talked about, that they're the one exception when it comes to law enforcement scrutiny. (not saying he personally believes that). Never mind the fact we've heard the same thing about Detroit. It's always the excuse people use to explain away the lack of info.

As for Schwiehs, he was a long time, well respected associate. An enforcer and one of the most notorious killers still around. But it's not like he had any position in the hierarchy of the family. He wasn't in the administration, a crew boss, etc.

Ivy, good call on Schweihs. The fact is, THE highest ranking non-Italian member, no matter how many people will tell you Murray Humphreys, was actually Gus Alex, who sat on the temporary ruling panel before Aiuppa took over. If an argument can be made that at one point the Outfit's upper echelon included non Italians, he's someone to look at.

Another thing of note. Albert Tocco and RIchard Cain were only a small percent Italian, and both were made men. Never seen this brought up before, so discuss.

Finally, in regards to the OP. I think you're reading too far in to it. The caporegime system is the same as in any other city, except crews also have an Underboss who is seen as as much a senior figure as the capo would be. A good example is 'Johnny Apes' Monteleone, who was seen as leader in his own right. I wouldn't go so far as to call the crews mini-families, or call the made men crew leaders as well.

Kind of sloppy typing, let me know if I need to reiterate anything.

Exactly. But he does seem to be amongst the very last non-Italian mobsters of note affiliated with Chicago. I put 'member' in inverted commas, but I agree; I should have written associate to avoid confusion.

And for the record, indeed I do not believe the Outfit is an exception to the rule. I do however think it's interesting how it's so often the Chicago guys claiming there's so much the Fed's are missing about the mob in their hometown; you may get the occasional whack-job saying similar things about any number of defunct Families, but with Chicago it's a recurring theme.



I was unaware of Tocco's supposed mixed ancestry. Do you know what nationality his mother was, or have a source on the info?

IIRC, Jimmy Marcello was also half Irish (on his mother's side, obviously). In Family Secrets by Jeff Coen, he mentions how Marcello seemed anxious about it being revealed in court.

You're right about Marcello. He's not even Italian by the looks of it. My mistake about Tocco, he was called Caesar and spent time in Greece, but was Italian. Dieland mistakenly wrote that he was Greek a while ago.

The crews seem to be setup like their own little families, being that they have an underboss and a entire section of town as their territory. Do capos in NY have a "top made man" that acts as a right hand man or "under-capo"?

I also believe the "members" of the Outfit are closer to the family than associates in NY families, this is why i would consider the men under the made men to be "members" and not assoicates. But thats just my opinion.

I suppose just about every captain, whether in New York, Chicago, or wherever, has an "aide de camp," a right hand man, a top soldier, as it were. However, while the Outfit has had what you're talking about in the past, I'm not totally convinced it still does today. Yes, we see posters on the forums here make up charts showing a very hierarchical organization with guys having those labels - a "street boss" or whatever underneath the crew boss. But nothing in the form of an actual, recent chart like that from the feds. Or anything suggesting that in recent cases or articles. Considering the Outfit is a much smaller and more streamlined organization now, one wonders why they would need all those layers. Considering it's more like the New England or Philadelphia families now, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it is more like how their organizations have looked in recent years.

Chicago never had a making Ceremony years ago. So, according to you, Ricca, Accardo, Giancana, Battaglia, Bucciere etc. and all the old Outfit guys were not made. Chicago made people THEIR OWN WAY. THEY DIDN'T CARE HOW NEW YORK MADE THEIR PEOPLE, WHICH WAS EVERYBODY AND THEIR BROTHER. Lombardo never went though that ceremony but neither did ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE MENTIONED ABOVE. He said he wasn't made because HE DID NOT WANT TO GO TO PRISON. You just don't get it. Please stop talking about Chicago because you're embarassing yourself. Seriously, Just stick to New York. The Outfit has presently more than 28 made guys, over a hundred soldiers and several hundred associates. Soldiers and associates are two different things in Chicago. Please stick to New York and shut the fuck up about Chicago.

can you desctibe the difference between made man, soldier and associate?who decides which "position" someone has?i fthere is no making ceremony for soldiers and associates,how can you distinguish?

Yes. Each regular Crew is structured the same way. What do I mean by regular crew? That would be each Crew that is not the Top Boss's Crew. His Crew is a lttle different. A regular Crew is structured in this way in the Outfit: Boss, Underboss, Made Men, soldiers. The associates are not members of the Crew but instead are all the people who are connected to the crew for business purposes. For example: a couple made men oversee a bookmaking franchise under the Boss and Underboss, the soldiers work the phones and do some collections, the associates are all the 25% street agents who have all the players and receive a commission on all the bets placed with the office. I know it's a little complicated, But I hope this helps give an example. There are also HIGH LEVEL Associates who do business with the Boss or underboss or made guy not on the street level.

Years ago when there was no formal making ceremony, a soldier was made with a handshake, a dinner in his honor, and a promotion, meaning that now he was a supervisor over soldiers or he may have his own separate Franchise. These important actions make the man, not a Ceremony pricking someone's finger which in my humble opinion is silly. Also, and very important. a soldier has to have committed or have been involved in a murder in order to be made. This was how it worked for years before Auippa wanted to be traditional and implement the finger pricking, holy card burning Ceremony.

As I asked in another Outfit thread, what evidence do you have to support this idea of the Chicago mob being structured differently? (Note: Since we're on the internet, you living in Chicago and saying you're related to some mobster doesn't count as evidence). As the documents below show, the Outfit is structured the same way as the other families and there is nothing to suggest there are "soldiers" in addition to "made members" and "associates" in Chicago.


From the "Family Secrets" indictment...

In order to carry out its criminal activities, the Chicago Outfit maintained a structure and chain of command. The criminal activities of the Chicago Outfit were carried out in part by sub-groups, or “crews,” which were generally given territories in different geographic locations in the Chicago area. These crews were known by their geographic areas, and included the Elmwood Park crew, the North Side/Rush Street crew, the South Side/26th Street or Chinatown crew, the Grand Avenue crew, the Melrose Park crew,and the Chicago Heights crew. Each crew was run by a crew leader, also known as a street boss or “capo,” and these crew bosses reported to an underboss, or “sotto capo,” who was second in command of the Chicago Outfit, and therefore referred to at times as “Number Two.” The overall leader of the Chicago Outfit was referred to as the Boss or “Number One.” The Chicago Outfit also utilized a “consigliere,” who provided advice to the Boss.

When an individual conducting illegal activities on behalf of the Chicago Outfit proved himself particularly trustworthy and was to be given special status in the enterprise, he was given “made” status. An individual could not normally be “made” unless he was of Italian descent, and had committed at least one murder on behalf of the enterprise. An individual had to be sponsored by his capo before he could be “made,” which occurred at a ceremony in which the person to be “made” swore allegiance to the enterprise. This ceremony was attended by the individual’s capo, as well asother ranking members of the Chicago Outfit. Once “made,” the individual was accorded greater status and respect in the enterprise. An individual who was “made” or who committed a murder on behalf of the Outfit was obligated to the enterprise for life to perform criminal acts on behalf of the enterprise when called upon.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/indict/2005/familySecrets.pdf


AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN J. O'ROURKE
OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA

15. The FBI maintains an inventory of members and associates of the Chicago Outfit.

16. The FBI defines a "made member" as a person who has participated in a formalized ceremony and has the right to share in the profits of the Chicago Outfit. A made member has the right to run his own street crew; to make loans known as "juice loans"; to extort "street tax" from local businesses and from gamblers and bookmakers; and to otherwise take control of gambling and bookmaking in his area. A made members is also entitled to the respect of other made members.

17. An "associate" of the Outfit is a person who works on behalf of a made member in the day-to-day activities of the Outfit such as collecting interest on juice loans; collecting street tax; contacting bookmakers; and settling debts. Other "associates" of the Outfit do not participate in the day-to-day criminal activities of Organized Crime but help facilitate these activities.

18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.

http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php

Ivy you're probably one of the most informed posters on the board, but you gotta understand that you can't get everything from the internet

People keep telling me this like it's something I don't know. Yes, you can't get everything from the internet.

But, by the same token, everyone has to remember that we're on the internet and one needs to be very careful about what they believe from other internet posters. Especially when what they say contradicts demonstrable evidence from official sources.

In short, I shouldn't be the only one asking elmwoodparker to back up what he's saying. And yet I am.

Ivy, Shut the Fuck up and don't ever talk to me about Chicago again. Understand.

So no response to any of the info I posted above, huh? Didn't think so.

Joe Fosco once said something interesting about the "making" ceremony in Chicago: That it was basically just a ruse to pay people less money. You don't want to pay them more money, so you give them a basically dumb title.

I have no way of knowing that if that is true, but it makes a heck of a lot of sense. It is *exactly* what they do in corporate America, and if there is one organization in the world that is even more cynical than corporate America, it's the mob.

I always found it rather hilarious and telling that Marcello was giving Nick Calabrese's family a paltry $4,000 a month to try to keep Nick quiet. $40K a year to not flip and basically sink everyone. If he'd have moved the decimal over, who knows if Family Secrets would have even happened.

As for the heirarchy, I have a feeling it is less formal than a lot of people think. But who knows.