Just think they're a topic worth discussing, discuss anything you want about them.

Also, off the main topic but how would Mafiosos feel about serial killers--about the Ted Bundys of the world?

Id assume most mobsters would think them exactly what they are; sick fucks. That being said, certain guys (Roy DeMeo, Tommy Pitera, I know they're the obvious ones but I know there's more)
could kinda sorta be considered serial killers, even though I dont believe they technically fit the mould.

Off on a bit of a tangent, but longtime Genovese capo Pete DeFeo was a relative of Butch DeFeo, perpertrator of the Amityville murders that spawned the franchise. Not a "serial killer" as such, (more a spree killer) but still an interesting tidbit.

Also, there's the unsolved case known as "The Axeman of New Orleans" in which a handful of people were murdered by being hacked to pieces with an axe in New Orleans in the early part of the last century. One theory holds that a low level local mobster known as John Mumfre was the unsub.

I for one have always had an interest in these sick fuckers, mostly the mentality and sheer insanity involved. Recommended reading has to be The Serial Killer Files by Harold Schecter; easily the best book on the subject Ive read to date. The guy breaks down basically every major case in the last 500 years.

Albert Fish. About as stick and twisted as they come.

Why does the Northwest draw out serial killers?

what about the midwest...nothing is more scarier than a clown

Emily Latella: What's all this fuss about cereal killers? Who kills their cereal? That doesn't make any sense. You can eat cereal, but you don't have to kill it before you eat it. Why would you want to kill cereal? Because there's no prize in the box ...

Jane Curtin: Emily, Emily ... it's serial killers: s-e-r-i-al. Not cereal that you eat. It's serial.

Emily: Oh. Never mind.

I have read a number of books about serial killers. Why are they often known by their full names, like John Wayne Gacy?? How often does that happen in other crimes? For example. Bernie Madoff isn't known as Bernard Lawrence Madoff (I had to look it up, I confess).

Seriously, though, serial killers are interesting from a psychological and sociological POV. Why are they almost always white males in their 30s? What happens to create them?

Ted Bundy is a good example. No physical or sexual abuse in his childhood, he was brought up by his mother and grandparents, who seemingly gave him a loving home. Granted, he thought his grandfather was his father, and maybe that can screw with your head, but make you kill dozens of young and beautiful women?

In 1992-3 I represented a serial killer, Joey Miller, at trial. I believe I once posted about the grisly nature of his crimes a few years ago. Having had represented more than a thousand clients in criminal matters in the first several years of my career, I can say there was something uniquely fascinating about him.

During my representation I consulted with Robert Ressler, the retired FBI special agent, who actually coined and defined the term "serial killer." Ressler was an amazing profiler, who could read a case file, and with shocking accuracy create a picture of the serialist by describing his car, living arrangements, age, work habits, etc. He even accurately profiled details such as a particular person counting steps as he walked and other OCD traits.

SB is correct that serial killers are almost always caucasian. They are always male too. The only other area, interestingly enough, where virtually all criminals are caucasian, Ressler said, was pedophelia.

Pathologists have theorized that serial killers suffer from a genetic mutation or malformed frontal lobe of the brain. Their act of murdering is usually passionless and systematic.

In my case Joey Miller murdered young black women, who were large. While race was tied as a motive or modus operandi, I never believed it was a factor as he grew up among blacks and mostly associated with blacks, and therefore I thought race was incidental to his crimes. His method of killing the women and disposing of their bodies was too brutal to recount, and it contrasted with his own gentle appearance. But as I had spent lots of hours alone with him in a prison interview room the size of a walk-in closet, I witnessed his demeanor change abruptly.

He's still incarcerated. He had two young kids at the time of trial and a baby born a few months after his incarceration on the charge. He'll never get out. Last year I noticed that his son, now 24, was charged with arson. It made me remember that I first represented his dad on an arson charge when he was roughly the same age.

By the way, if you are really interested in the topic of serial killers, I would suggest Robert Ressler's "Whoever Fights Monsters."

I read about him, Klyd. Didn't he recently admit to some other crimes that authorities don't believe he committed just to get attention?

It's ironic, but yes, it may be the same guy. I think it was in february that he contacted authorities about something. I'm not sure of the status as my representation ended when I joined a new firm in the mid-1990s.

At the time of his 1993 trial there were multiple killings in North Carolina and other parts ofPennsylvania that had his signature and meshed with a time line of periods when he was out of prison and out of state, but he vehemently denied them.

Also, three years before he went to trial, another defendant pled guilty to murdering a young woman, but in the course of the Miller investigation it was realized that he was innocent and Miller had to have been the killer. The defendant was released from prison, but the guards had to drag him as he was literally clinging to the bars, not wanting to leave jail.

Soviet serial killer Andrei Chikatilo just may be the sickest serial killer I've ever read about. I wrote a paper on him in my Homicide Investigation class and actually had nightmares. It wasn't an easy paper to write, let me tell ya.

What kind of class is that? (sounds cool)

Like I said before, I have yet to read about anyone sicker than Albert Fish. Various serial killer have been known for one grizzly aspect or another but Fish's activities seemed to stretch across the entire spectrum. It's possible he had upwards of 100 victims - mostly children - kidnapping, raping, torturing, killing, and eating them.

I meant to post earlier; you're right about Fish. He's pretty much the ONLY guy that I've always found genuinely unsettling. I mean, serial killers are creepy as a rule, but something about the Vampire of Wisteria has always stood out among the ranks. Beyond the terrible things he perpertated against the Budd family and the horrible recollections of other murders he gave, his sexual sadism and various paraphilias are astoundingly depraved. One thing that sounds like urban legend but is completely true is his habit of sticking pins into his perineum. An xray taken shortly before his execution revealed the extent of his self abuse.



During his trial.

As a younger man.

Yep. He seemed to enjoy inflicting pain on himself as much as he did others.

Chikatilo was another fascinating case study, especially considering how Soviet bureaucracy hindered his apprehension. Anatoly Onoprienko another one, also Alexander Pichuskin - the former USSR has spawned a plethora of serial murderers despite official doctrine holding that such things cpould only happen in the capitalistic, decadent West. A similar example can be made in the rise of Chinese serial killers (such as Gong Runbo, Huang Yong and Yang Xinhai) For decades, cases were unheard of - not because they didn't occur, but because state policy was to cover up.

Some of the most fascinating studies, in my own opinion;

Of course, that "Unholy Trinity", Bundy, Gacy and Dahmer, Dahmer especially for me. As SB pointed, as with Bundy, nothing in his past pointed towards his path; he was not abused as a child, suffered no head damage/brain injuries and was brought up in a stable environment. His delusions and the sheer severity of his crimes always stand out for me.

Otis Toole, accomplice of Henry Lee Lucas, and believed by John Walsh, host of America's Most Wanted, to be the killer of his son Adam. Depraved and damaged as they come, and fucntionally retarded. Died in prison of liver failure due to severe chirrhosis.

The actually undidentified killer known as The Monster of Florence; several theories have been put forward, several figures named and several arrests made, but as yet no true conclusion. Much evidence points towards an insular Sardinian family, but as yet no solid evidence has obtained a conviction for all the crimes.

Nikolai Dzhumagaliev, the only Kazakhstani serial killer Ive read about. In 1980 he was convicted of seven murders, despite being suspected in more than 50. What makes him stand out for me was his habit of cannibalising his female victims with a set of unusual metal dentures; also the fact that he was released around 2001 and is said to be living freely in Eastern Europe.

One closer to home for me, The Rockhampton Rapist Leonard Fraser. Had delusions of joining a biker gang but was little more than a sadistic rapist, practioner of beastiality and killer. During his trial, one of his alleged victims was discovered to have been living secretly with her partner unbeknownst to her own family for nearly a decade. He was convicted of four murders and was actually held in a prison not 10 minutes from where I lived for a time. He died in 2007 in the hospital my grandfather recieves radiation therapy.

Ah I could go one forever, there's so many fascinating instances of these sick fucks.

A great book. He, John Douglas, Howard Teten and John Conway (amonsgt a few others I cant think of at the moment) are the architects of modern criminal profiling.

I actually wrote a paper about Bundy in college. He was completely deranged and a pure sociopath, but nonetheless very interesting. There have been several books written about him, but none better than "The Only Living Witness" by Hugh Aynesworth & Stephen Michaud. A second excellent source was "The Stranger Beside Me," written by Ann Rule. She actually knew Bundy personally and worked with him while he attended college. In addition, she was a crime writer and was actually investigating the killings in Seattle for which Bundy admitted to right before his execution.

Until shortly before his execution, Bundy steadfastly denied involvement in the nearly 36 murders for which he was a suspect. The greatness of the Aynesworth & Michaud book is that Bundy approached them because he wanted to talk. They soon learned that Bundy was manipulating them and was not going to offer anything of substantive value regarding the accusations against him. He wanted to talk, but without confessing. So out of desperation, Aynesworth & Michaud suggested that Bundy speculate in the third person what he thought the killer might have done. Bundy recounted many of the murders and gave detailed accounts of the crime scene, exchanges with the victim, and other details that only the killer could have known. They also discovered that Bundy had a severe case of arrested development, so he was very child-like in his behavior. This third person account gave Bundy the vehicle to confess but without legally implicating himself.

The most frightening aspect of Bundy - to me - was that he didn't fit the stereotype of what a killer should look like. In addition, he was smart enough to manipulate his own behavior to conform to social norms. He was a law student, had worked in several Republican political campaigns, dressed neatly, and spoke like an educated person. He also knew how to take advantage of situations and, more importantly, of people. Some of his victim were lured while helping Bundy, who would wear a fake arm or leg cast. Sometimes he posed as a police officer or fire fighter. He almost always approached his victim with a ruse to get them to come away willingly with him.

In other words, he didn't appear to be a deranged killer such as the Hillside Strangler or Charles Manson. But behind the seemingly outward mask Bundy displayed, he was a violent, sadistic, and unmerciful killer.

The public was fascinated with Bundy because of the aforementioned traits. He had some ardent supporters who believed that it was impossible for the Ted Bundy that they knew to be involved in kidnapping, rape, and murder. Bundy became a national name in 1978 when he successfully escape prison for the second time while awaiting to be on trial for murder in Colorado. Bundy was finally caught after being on the run in Florida for nearly three weeks. His recapture was after killing three women in a Florida State dorm, one young girl, and assaulting several other females. His trial for these horrific murders was televised to a national audience. Viewers watched as the dapper accused defendant also (often) acted as his own attorney.


The other part of the Bundy story I have always found fascinating was the work of the investigators. Bob Keppel, Mike Fischer, and Jerry Thompson hunted Bundy. Keep in mind that these crimes occured in the early-to-late 1970s. Computers were barely in use, so Bundy had a huge advantage in eluding the police because law enforcement was nowhere near organized as they are today. That's not a knock against the police back then. Bundy saw the holes in the crime investigation system and fully exploited them. He traveled anonymously to different states, altered his appearance, and approached potential victims in different ways to throw the police off track. I believe that Bundy confessed to murders in six states, but investigators have suspected there may more victims in additional states.

Yes. I think he's by far the most prolific of all serial killers. I forget the author's name, but there is a good book about him, called "Hunting the Devil."

Actually, that dubious 'honour' goes to three Colombians; Luis Garavito (138 proven victims, suspected in more than 400) Pedro Lopez (110/350) and Daniel Barbosa (72/150). Even Gary Ridgeway was convicted of 71 murders. Howard Shipman is up there as well. Chikatilo's 56 pales (?) in comparison (I dont think thats quite a tactful way to put it), though they are as brutal as any.

Didn't many of the same investigators work on the Green River case? Ann Rule wrote books about both killers. However, the thing that got to her about Bundy is that she never suspected him. When Bundy took the two girls in one day from Lake Sammammish (sp?), someone overheard telling one of his victims that his name was "Ted" and another witness saw him getting into a light-colored VW Beetle with one of them.

Although Ted Bundy drove a tan Beetle, nobody who knew him suspected him, not even Ann. People even teased him about being "Ted". Ann Rule was not only a crime writer, she was a former cop. Even after his arrest, she had doubts about Ted's guilt.

100% correct, SB. Robert Keppel hunted the Green River Killer for years. In fact, Bundy even helped offer his insights in trying to catch the killer. This was much like Hannibal Lecter years before "Silence of the Lambs" was written.

One of several others beside Ann Rule to note the similarities b/w the police composite and Ted Bundy was his then girlfriend and Carole Ann Boone. The latter became his wife after Bundy was thrice sentenced to death.

In fact, he proposed to her during his trial, where he represented himself. As far as Bundy's Green River Killer consultation, he offered very little towards identifying Ridgeway and provided more insight into his own condition than anything else.

Basically, he tried to blame porn. And after years of denial, began offering up more bodies in a bid to prolong his execution.

While it can't be held solely responsible, I don't know why some people have always been sceptical about porn being the initial catalyst to Bundy's murders. It's well known that many viewers of pornography need increasingly harder and more debasing material, in which their natural humanity and compassion goes right out the window.

I totally disagree with you on that one Ivy. For me, it's the same argument as 'video games make you violent'. Does playing monopoly make you a millionaire? Nope. Its about the individual.

Bundy was a psychopath. His interest in porn was not a symptom of his psychopathy, nor was his psychopathy a symptom of his porn addiction.

Regarding your argument on the perils of pornography, lets look at a country like Japan. The Japananese are well known as purveyors of...well, disgustingly weird and freaky shit when it comes to their porn (think: Hentai, tentacles, doujinshi, incest fantasy, rape fantasy, etc, etc). By your logic, Japan shoyuld be rife with sex crimes. In fact, the opposite is true; an increase in the availability of pornography is linked to markedly reduced rates of sex crime and sexual violence.

This trend has been studied and documented in other countries as well. There's many more articles available, but researchers based at the University of Hawaii published an interesting piece on it which I'll link to for convenience (I have it bookmarked)
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html

That's a good point I failed to mention regarding Bundy being of little help to finding Ridgeway. From a research perspective, Bundy's insight into the mind of killer were very useful.


Let me address your statement about Bundy and porn. He was not into normal porn with just seeing a naked woman or a couple going at it. Bundy was into porn - by his own admission - that depicted women being physically harmed and appearing as a victim. He also stated more than once that porn did not cause him to act the way he did. I know he gave an interview the day before his execution to a religious figure and cited porn as an evil. But Bundy was helping the interviewer with his platform and still trying for a last minute stay in his execution. In essence, Bundy was just giving the pastor good sound bytes.

Based upon Bundy's fetish for extremely violent pornography, I am of the opinion that he sought out victims to "act" in his own sick fantasies. He would sexually assault all of his victims, often in heinous ways with objects. This occurred prior to, at the time of, and (even sicker) after the victim was killed.

Harold Shipman was a doctor close to the area I lived in the UK, he was suspected of 220 plus murders, I think 218 were positively affirmed to him. Our family knew of family and friends of the victims. He got away with it for many years, I guess because no one suspects a doctor of such crimes.

Ted Bundy had admitted to one of his psychiatrists that the compulsion to kill first gripped him while he was a very young man in the 1960s, walking on the boardwalk in Ocean City, NJ. There is an unsolved missing person case involving a young woman from Harrisburg, who was last seen in OC during the same point in the timeline of Bundy. While the body hasn't been found, she is believed by some to be his first victim.

I needed to fill up my schedule in order to get my full financial aid disbursement, so I decided to take a class that focuses on the investigation of homicidal behavior. It was mostly boring procedural stuff, but once we got into the psychology of a killer, it got really interesting. There were some gruesome pictures in the text book, we saw a video of a guy who hung himself by accident (he was into auto-erotic asphyxiation, and this particular time, it went terribly wrong). We also saw a video of a guy who shot himself in the head in a police interrogation room, and we got to view an autopsy. It was probably the easiest class I've ever taken, because we mostly just watched videos.