the Mexicans have been expanding into the northeast in recent years. They're the dominant drug trafficking group in the rest of the country already

but mexicans produce some cocaine by themselves or they buy it all in colombia? the fact that they supply the american market it doesnt mean they are powerful i dont think the cartels are so active in the states they just send drugs to local gangs from what i read but they dont control any specific territory

cartels are extremely influential in the united states particularly in the southwest border states, but other places as well.

The Mexicans still have to get their cocaine from the Colombians or others in South America. But like the Colombians, they are able to produce their own high grade heroin. As well as the other drugs, i.e. marijuana, meth, etc.

Although it's a few years out of date, the link below shows the U.S. cities where the major cartels had a presence in 2008.

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs27/27986/appenda.htm

Although it's a few years out of date, the link below shows the U.S. cities where the major cartels had a presence in 2008

[quote=m2w]but i mean if they control territories in some specific city or they just sell drugs to local gangs? because if they just sell it doesnt mean they have a powerbase

It is not allowed but that only covers made men.

Made guys aren't allowed to traffic in drugs? Since when? Is that you, Dan?

The 2009 DEA report said the American LCN was increasingly working with Mexican DTO's, which are basically extensions of the cartels in Mexico. Whether it be other Italians, the Colombians, Dominicans, or Mexicans, the American LCN guys have to get their cocaine from somewhere.

for such non viable families i sure see Kansas city and Buffalo on your list a lot. Maybe what the FBI says isn't always 100% accurate?

If you're talking about indictments since 2000, there really haven't been much for either Kansas City or Buffalo. Furthermore, it's been years since the feds even bothered to release a chart of those families. Neither of them have been included in any articles in recent years listing remaining families. Once again, of course, that doesn't mean there aren't members still alive, some who are still active.

You just displayed a chart indicating multiple drug busts for Kansas City and Buffalo since 2000. So what is it? There needs to be charts released and articles written for them to be "viable"? Drugs busts are not indicative of that?

No. A couple cases each for Buffalo and Kansas City, in which individual members or associates have been busted for trafficking in drugs, isn't really a sign of a viable family. For a viable family, it needs to meet the RICO criteria - ongoing criminal activity in behalf of an organization. Neither Buffalo or Kansas City really has either.

Well isn't any bust just an "individual" member or an associate? I haven't heard of any bust of "The Gambino Family" or "The Genovese Family". Usually on an indictment it just says an individuals name, no?

Furthermore do you know if those individuals were kicking up? Does the chart specify if they were pocketing all the $, kicking any up, or paying tribute?

In New York, or New England for example, there's been multiple mob/drug cases, involving several guys who have been named in this position or that position, over an extended period of time. In other words, it's activity that is obviously sanctioned and/or run by the family. It's not at all that clear in the handful of cases in Buffalo or Kansas City.

You're right, it isn't clear so how can you arrive at the conclusion that "they were not kicking up or acting on behalf of the enterprise"? You admit there are still made guys in Buffalo and Kansas City right? So unless these life long criminals all the sudden decide they no longer want what is rightfully theirs ( tribute $) I would safely say the accused were kicking up and therefore at least to some extent acting on behalf of a criminal enterprise.

Finally do you not agree that anyone made guy or associate operating in these supposed "non viable" areas loves the perception that the mafia is dead in their area?

I know your formula for indicating where viable families still are based on FBI indictments and statements makes sense on paper but to think that all FBI agencies operate on the same level with the same priorities in every city is horribly flawed. To draw the conclusion that Detroit or Buffalo is extinct because they don't have the amount of mafia indictments as NY or CHicago is the same as saying "the Detroit FBI branch allocates the same amount of resources and priority to mafia activity as the FBI in NYC does and since they do not have the same number of indictment the mafia must be non viable in Detroit".

Now I do not know in which cities the mafia is still active in, but IMO your formula in which you use to base your conclusions is seriously flawed.

I've heard these same arguments from others.

First, it's not my formula. It's not like I've come up with my own 50 point checklist of what makes a viable family. I'm going by the minimal RICO criteria that defines organized crime - which only requires two things.

Again, neither Buffalo or Kansas City has been included on any official list of viable families for over a decade now. Detroit is on some but not on others. And the mob cases in all three cities have been few and far between for years now. What we see in these areas is more a case of residual activity from remnants of families that once were.

If I'm a mobster striving to be the best in my field the perception you espouse is music to my ears.
A guy as savvy as Tocco loves your opinion on this matter.

If you're talking about indictments since 2000, there really haven't been much for either Kansas City or Buffalo. Furthermore, it's been years since the feds even bothered to release a chart of those families.

I've heard that argument too. "Oh, they're just laying low." Heck, if that's the case, the Dallas and Denver families really must be plugging along. Haven't heard anything from them in decades.

You are using you're same flawed logic again IVY , in that if one family is just laying low then they all must be, as if it is not possible for several families to being laying low and other to be defunct. Not surprising though as you seem to believe all FBI agencies have the same agenda, priorities and allocated resources the same.

You assuming mob families and are carbon copies of one another is flawed. You assuming FBI agencies are all carbon copies of one another is flawed. Unless you can show some date that FBI agencies across the USA allocate the same percentage of $ to combat the mafia vs Street gangs, counter terrorism, ect than the formula you ascribe to has no merit.

"The Mafia remains potent in the New York City area, where officials say the mob is hard to uproot because it has five separate and large crime families, and in the suburbs of Chicago. But in most other areas, where prosecutors have to contend with only a single family, the legendary mob that once controlled entire labor unions, city governments, and criminal enterprises has clearly lost its grip." (1990)
http://www.the-laborers.org/lexisnexis/articles/mob_in_decline.htm

"Only New York and Chicago have substantial Mafia organizations." (1997)
http://www.slate.com/id/1054/

The estimated made membership of the LCN is 1100 nationwide, with roughly 80% of the members operating in the New York metropolitan area. There are five crime families that make up the LCN in New York City: the Bonanno, the Colombo, the Genovese, the Gambino, and the Lucchese families. There is also LCN operational activity in Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, and the Miami\South Florida area, but much less so than in New York. In other previous strongholds such as Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New Orleans, and Pittsburgh, the LCN is now weak or non-existent. La Cosa Nostra is a high priority for the FBI and for law enforcement in New York City. Elsewhere, however, it is a low priority, with attention being characterized by members as "hit and miss" because of a belief that "things are under control." (1999)
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/218555.pdf

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. It has members in other major cities and is involved in international crimes. (2000)
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/italian_mafia/?searchterm=lacosanostra

"Only families in New York and Chicago, the largest traditional bases, retained a semblance of organizational frameworks. Elsewhere in the nation, the twenty-odd borgatas were in disarray or practically defunct, except in areas where the New York and Chicago families had branches, especially in Florida. The remaining strength of the Mob was largely concentrated in New York and the Northeast Corridor." (Raab, Five Families - 2005)

"Cosa Nostra, once a nationwide organization of Italian-American mobsters, is down to one outfit in Chicago and New York City's five organized families - the Bonannos, Colombos, Gambinos, Genovese, and Luccheses. They are about 'all that's left,' Mob historian Selwyn Raab says." (2005)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-09-mafia-cover_x.htm

Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami. (2006)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/badguys/060912/the_mafia_a_21stcentury_cosa_n.htm

"They're beleaguered, battered, and bruised but they are far from wiped out. They have been hurt by nearly three decades of prosecutions, mostly by federal authorities. But the five families in New York and those in other metropolitan areas, notably Chicago and its suburbs, remain viable criminal networks. (2006)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/weekinreview/05capeci.html

Today, families in former strongholds like Cleveland, Tampa, and Los Angeles are gone. our thing - as initiates called the mob - is in serious decline everywhere but New York City. (2007)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-25-2782988181_x.htm

"There are 9 La Cosa Nostra families throughout the country; five of them exist in New York." (Michael Franzese, 2009)

Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami. (2010)
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40525.pdf

"While the Mafia - also known as La Cosa Nostra - may no longer possess the robust national presence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit." (2011)
http://documents.latimes.com/fbis-mafia-family-tree/

Even after imprisonment of senior leadership, it survives, and in some places thrives, though most experts agree that its operations are now largely confined to its traditional bases in the Northeast and Chicago. (2011)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704115404576096392318489246.html

Quoting people with an obvious agenda! Real persuasive.

Thats like asking Cefulu, Vito Rizzuto and the late Sal Montanga what there thoughts are and taking there responses as gospel lol. seriously what's the difference? " So MR Rizzuto, do you think the Government has what it takes to dismantle your organization in the next 10 years or are you savvy enough to persevere?" You really do have a double standard and believe the US government to be infallible don't you ?


Did Raab ask any mobsters their opinion on the matter?

The list you posted is really no different than interviewing members of one of the teams in the 2012 world series and asking them if they think they will win or not and taking the answers as gospel truth.

Quoting people with an obvious agenda! Real persuasive.

Thats like asking Cefulu, Vito Rizzuto and the late Sal Montanga what there thoughts are and taking there responses as gospel lol. seriously what's the difference? " So MR Rizzuto, do you think the Government has what it takes to dismantle your organization in the next 10 years or are you savvy enough to persevere?" You really do have a double standard and believe the US government to be infallible don't you ?


Did Raab ask any mobsters their opinion on the matter?

The list you posted is really no different than interviewing members of one of the teams in the 2012 world series and asking them if they think they will win or not and taking the answers as gospel truth.

Sincerely doubt it. If anything, I think the govt would say LCN was active in as many cities as possible to justify continued funding for its various LCN taskforces in each of those places, etc.