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What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? #634453
02/12/12 11:14 AM
02/12/12 11:14 AM
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Don Cardi Offline OP
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On December 31, 1958 Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista raised a New Year's Eve toast to his cabinet members and senior military officers and wished them hasta la vista. After seven years of building Havana's tourism industry by inviting gangsters such as Meyer Lansky to construct casinos, helping to fund their enterprises and taking a large chunk of the proceeds for himself, Batista knew his presidency was over. His plundering had weakened Cuba's treasury and demoralized the army. Nine days later, Fidel Castro's guerrillas took the capital and installed what would become the longest-lasting communist government in the Western Hemisphere.


I've always wondered what would have happened if Batista had retained power over Cuba. Would it have re-shaped or re-defined mob history and the effects that it may have had on America?


Any thoughts?



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634456
02/12/12 11:25 AM
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Great topic, DC. One would think that like everything, it would not have lasted forever. However, it sure seems that Cuba would have been known as "Las Vegas Island" for a very long time before it's "inevitable" end? I think that long term visionaries on the Mafia side would have been forced to wise up quicker to the threat of uprising from locals in response to the terrible way of life for the average/lower class Cuban citizen. If I remember correctly, Batista was very greedy and did not allow much island improvements; infrastructure, etc. Thus causing A LOT of unhappy campers who would eventually group, rise and rebel. Many people in Chicago loved Capone because of his free soup kitchens and handouts to the needy way back in the Depression. So, I truly think that any chance of a very long term success for organized crime/gambling in Cuba would have been contingent on "the state of the nation".

Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Mark] #634459
02/12/12 11:36 AM
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Point taken Mark. However, it was during the Batista reign that tourism was on the rise and hotels and casinos were built. The building of these hotels and casinos were funded by the mob, through Meyer Lansky. So something tells me that if Batista had continued to govern...or perhaps a more appropriate word is rule...Cuba, Lansky and his "investors" would not have allowed the nation to decline to the point where it would have affected the success of the mob's business ventures in Cuba.

I personally believe that like Las Vegas, over time, Cuba would have become a mecca for both vacationers and gamblers.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634461
02/12/12 11:48 AM
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It sure seems that way if everyone played their cards right. I couldn't see certain factions of the Lansky interests (Mafia) watching a cash cow degenerate to the point of losing it completely. I could see the American La Cosa Nostra "replacing" Batista with a more accommodating leader if he wasn't towing the line. I didn't mean to say there was nothing growing under Batista. They created a major tourist attraction with every luxury one could imagine - no doubt. I totally agree that history would have been very different if it survived and thrived. Cuba could have been the "sixth borough"! NYC Families would have had the Cuba gambling/vacation mecca and Chicago had Vegas... maybe that was the ultimate mafia plan?

Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634463
02/12/12 12:20 PM
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In addition to the interest in casinos, wasn't Cuba also a major route for getting heroin into the country?

Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Mark] #634464
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All great points Mark. I believe that the ultimate goal of Lansky and the mob was to create a country that they could rule by using a front government that they would own and control with Batsita at the helm.

As you correctly pointed out in your earlier post, Batista and his regime were extremely greedy as they did not care about investing the monies that Lansky and the mob had provide to them towards bettering the lives of the people of Cuba. Instead they were more interested in lining their own pockets with the profits that were being made from tourism and gambling.

Lansky would use Batista and his government to establish their presence in Cuba in order to obviously make money, but also to establish and run a mob controlled country and take money that they were making both in the USA and around the world, and launder it within Cuba itself.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Skinny_Vinny] #634475
02/12/12 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: Skinny_Vinny
In addition to the interest in casinos, wasn't Cuba also a major route for getting heroin into the country?


I seem to remember something about after WWII Lucky Luciano facilitating heroin routes from Sicily to the US and Cuba was mentioned as one of the portals... I may be wrong.

http://www.drugtext.org/library/books/McCoy/book/09.htm

Post Edit - I found this link. Of course, I can't vouch for accuracy but it is at the least pretty interesting.

Last edited by Mark; 02/12/12 02:12 PM.
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Mark] #634497
02/12/12 03:57 PM
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It's a pity Castro didn't treat the mobsters he captured according the law of war. I read somewhere that Santo Trafficante complained about being held for just "about a month" in a prisoner camp. Why not just put them away for life? What kind of "communist dictatorship" is that? Or did he do this on purpose to send them to the USA to harm the economy?

Last edited by Dwalin2011; 02/12/12 03:58 PM.

Willie Marfeo to Henry Tameleo:

1) "You people want a loaf of bread and you throw the crumbs back. Well, fuck you. I ain't closing down."

2) "Get out of here, old man. Go tell Raymond to go shit in his hat. We're not giving you anything."
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Dwalin2011] #634498
02/12/12 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Or did he do this on purpose to send them to the USA to harm the economy?

I've been telling everyone it wasn't Obama's fault whistle.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634500
02/12/12 04:01 PM
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once that pipe dream that is communisism went to hell, im sure castro wouldnt of minded some of that casino money as ther were rumors that he took tribute from drug smugglers during the cocaine cowboy era.


It's either blue cheese with wings or go fuck yer mudda!
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634531
02/12/12 06:39 PM
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Michael and Roth would have become even richer than they already were. Oh wait, but this is the reality section...

Well, Lansky and Trafficante would have become even more succesful than they already were.

Btw, interesting topic!


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634535
02/12/12 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
I personally believe that like Las Vegas, over time, Cuba would have become a mecca for both vacationers and gamblers.


As far as I know, Cuba had already become such a mecca for Americans in the 1950s. But that success was short-lived.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634543
02/12/12 07:41 PM
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I think the revolution would have happened eventually BUT since that's not what the original question asks...

I think if Batista remains in control there is no massive influx of Cuban migration into Florida.

There is no Bay of Pigs or Cuban Missile Crisis. Possibly, depending on who you believe was responsible, there is no JFK assassination. Perhaps without the displaced fear factor of a "communist dictatorship 90 miles from Miami" there is also no Vietnam War. An energized right-wing doesn't nominate Goldwater in 64. Lansky maintains a more active power base and presence in organized crime.

The possibilities are endless. It just keeps going.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634837
02/14/12 10:55 AM
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An excellent thought piece. I agree with DC. I think that tourism would have bolstered Cuba well, especially considering it's close proximity to the U.S. It would literally be vacationers "first stop" in the Caribbean. Even now, Cuba has some gorgeous resorts, albeit few of them, U.S. citizens are just not allowed to travel there for vacation. But once the U.S. drops that rule, I think you'll see alot of vacation dollars flood that marketplace, causing Cuba to rebuild and bolster it's tourism industry.

Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Jimmy_Two_Times] #634849
02/14/12 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jimmy_Two_Times
U.S. citizens are just not allowed to travel there for vacation. But once the U.S. drops that rule, I think you'll see alot of vacation dollars flood that marketplace, causing Cuba to rebuild and bolster it's tourism industry.


I think it's time for the US to stop that bullshit. Let go of the past and move on. Cuba isn't the enemy anymore.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Sonny_Black] #634851
02/14/12 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: Jimmy_Two_Times
U.S. citizens are just not allowed to travel there for vacation. But once the U.S. drops that rule, I think you'll see alot of vacation dollars flood that marketplace, causing Cuba to rebuild and bolster it's tourism industry.


I think it's time for the US to stop that bullshit. Let go of the past and move on. Cuba isn't the enemy anymore.

I agree 100 percent. I have a lot of Cuban friends in Florida that would love to go home again in their lifetime. A lot of the old timers who grew up there before Castro are starting to die off now. It's now or never for a lot of them. It's really kind of sad when you think about it.

But speaking of Florida, it's no secret that their Chamber of Commerce would exercise all of their power to prevent the embargo from being lifted. It would cost the state billions in terms of tourism because of Cuba's proximity (only 90 miles from Key West). Not to mention all of the Cubans who would flee the state if they could go home again to live in freedom.

Fidel Castro ruined a lot of lives. Even the most die hard socialists will admit this.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: pizzaboy] #634858
02/14/12 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
But speaking of Florida, it's no secret that their Chamber of Commerce would exercise all of their power to prevent the embargo from being lifted. It would cost the state billions in terms of tourism because of Cuba's proximity (only 90 miles from Key West). Not to mention all of the Cubans who would flee the state if they could go home again to live in freedom.


That's a good reason for Florida, but they can't go on with this forever.

Quote:
Fidel Castro ruined a lot of lives. Even the most die hard socialists will admit this.


True, but the US didn't make it any easier for him too. He was pretty much forced into his position to align with the USSR and become their arch enemy.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #634864
02/14/12 02:45 PM
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First off, the Tampa mob had its hand in Cuban politics since Ignazio Antinori in the mid 1930s, due to the large Cuban population in Tampa and ties on the island. Cocaine was flowing from Cuba into to Port of Tampa even earlier, in the 1920s.

Point is, pre-Castro Cuba didn't revolve solely around Lansky/Luciano.

Since the Mafia were bankrolling Castro as well as Batista, I wonder if there would have been any fallout in the mob's relationship with Batista going forward.

A Cuba without Castro would have spurred more casino growth, which may have impacted the viability of Las Vegas

Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: ScottD] #634865
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Originally Posted By: ScottD
A Cuba without Castro would have spurred more casino growth, which may have impacted the viability of Las Vegas

I agree. I also think that a Cuba without Castro would change the face of American tourism in general. Why go to Aruba or Paradise Island when you can go to a country as beautiful and culture rich as Cuba?


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Dwalin2011] #634927
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Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
It's a pity Castro didn't treat the mobsters he captured according the law of war. I read somewhere that Santo Trafficante complained about being held for just "about a month" in a prisoner camp. Why not just put them away for life? What kind of "communist dictatorship" is that?


Actually compared with most of the communist dictators in history Castro is relatively benign.

I'm not saying he's a good guy or anything, but he's no Stalin or Mao.

Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: ScottD] #635539
02/19/12 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: ScottD
First off, the Tampa mob had its hand in Cuban politics since Ignazio Antinori in the mid 1930s, due to the large Cuban population in Tampa and ties on the island. Cocaine was flowing from Cuba into to Port of Tampa even earlier, in the 1920s.

Point is, pre-Castro Cuba didn't revolve solely around Lansky/Luciano.



Yes, Cuba did have ties to the mob in the late 20's - early 30's. But is was Lansky who was the real catalyst in taking things a step further by forging relationships with those both already in and rising to power. Pre-Castro Cuba may not have revolved solely around Lansky, but it eventually did evolve as a result of the Little Man's visions, foresight and abilities.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Don Cardi] #635547
02/19/12 01:47 PM
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Batista wouldn't have lasted much longer than 1/1/59, Castro or no:

Cuba before Castro had the third-highest per-capita income in Latin America, after Chile and Argentina. While there were great disparities in wealth between cities and the countryside, Cuba also had a thriving, educated, high-achieving middle class. They were the people who were dissatisfied enough to suppor Castro, at least initially. I think that, without Castro, the middle class would have seen Batista as standing in the way of progress and would have forced him out.

The US would have provided impetus: The Kennedy Administration, only about two years later, declared war on organized crime. The US government always called the shots in Cuba. I think the administration would have leaned on Batista to "retire" (as the US had earlier), forced the gangsters out, and would have supported some "democratically" elected leader. Cuba then might have become something like Vegas in the Seventies--still the playground (and maybe the whorehouse) of the Caribbean, but with somewhat more "respectability."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Turnbull] #635615
02/19/12 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Batista wouldn't have lasted much longer than 1/1/59, Castro or no:

Cuba before Castro had the third-highest per-capita income in Latin America, after Chile and Argentina. While there were great disparities in wealth between cities and the countryside, Cuba also had a thriving, educated, high-achieving middle class. They were the people who were dissatisfied enough to suppor Castro, at least initially. I think that, without Castro, the middle class would have seen Batista as standing in the way of progress and would have forced him out.

The US would have provided impetus: The Kennedy Administration, only about two years later, declared war on organized crime. The US government always called the shots in Cuba. I think the administration would have leaned on Batista to "retire" (as the US had earlier), forced the gangsters out, and would have supported some "democratically" elected leader. Cuba then might have become something like Vegas in the Seventies--still the playground (and maybe the whorehouse) of the Caribbean, but with somewhat more "respectability."


After Kennedy was killed, the mob pretty much recovered and business continued like before. Wouldn't this also be the case in Cuba if things happened like the way you describe?


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What If Batista Had Not Been Overthrown By Castro? [Re: Sonny_Black] #635678
02/19/12 11:13 PM
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Well, it's a guess, Sonny, but I'm guessing that the Cuban people would have the last word. If the Mob had been expelled under the Kennedy Administration, I doubt that they'd have been welcomed back, though they might have found ways to be involved in loan sharking, prostitution, night clubs and other activities directly related to gambling--as they are today in Vegas and Atlantic City.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

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