And also TB, he never pauses to reflect upon the fact that it was he that, in large part, exposed his family to the horrors of this world.

'Evil' and 'stupid'....not a lot between them really.

Mike did not expose the family to the horrors of the world. Vito did the moment he killed the Don in Sicily, at that point he and his family became part of a criminal element. Mike did not join the mafia he was born into it. His choice to kill Sol and the Captain was a decision he made to protect his family, he knew it had to be done, he did not turn evil, in his mind killing Sol and the Captain was no differnt than killing Nazi's both times he was protecting his family. Mike would have been evil if he killed indesciminetly, but he didnt, ever person that he had killed were killed to protect the family, which is what he believed his job to be as the family head. I think that what everyone is seeing as hard is in actuallity the result of a person being thrust into a world and life he never really wanted to be a part of but had too with the shooting of Vito and the death of Sonny. His continual efforts to take the family legit is in my mind a sign of remorse and desire to leave a world he never wanted to be a part of. Sonny wanted that life and taking the family legit would have been the last thing he would ever want to do. In my opinion.

For Vito too, the move into the criminal world was slow. It started when he took Clemenza's guns. (Evil always starts with small steps.) He was present when Clemenza stole the carpet. Later, he joined the robberies of Clemenza and Tessio. There may be some reasons to justify that but you can't call these cations "good". The first murder Vito commits is the killing of Fanucci. And in the given situation of anarchy in Little Italy at that time, where the government had no intentions and no means to bring peace and justice to the neighborhoods, even that murder may be justified. But Vito was already at a point where he wasn't free of selfish reasons. Later, the killing of Fanucci was viewed as an act of heroism, but in fact: one robber killed the other. In the film (not in the novel) he seemed to acquire a taste for killing, so he went back to Sicily to kill those who were responsible for the killing of his parents and his brother.


No difference to his father. Vito did not want to be a Mafia boss. Mike thought that by killing Mac&Sol he would do good. As you say it was like "killing Nazis". But that was the first step across the Rubicon. Probably, he subconciously chose to be part of the game after the shooting of Vito when he joins the discussions of Sonny, Tom and Tessio.
The social pressures - family, situation, role models - were so strong that it looks as if he had no choice. But he had. At any given time.


Good thought.

Whether you agree that "evil" is a proper choice of words for what Michael (and Vito) became, I cannot agree with the contention that their actions were somehow unavoidable based on the circumstances in which they found themselves.

Vito and Michael both faced choices in their lives. Granted, they were often very hard choices, but they were choices. They continually chose a course of violence and criminality.

Vito could have kicked some $$$ to Fanucci, like all the other criminals in the neighborhood did. He still would have made a nice living. He instead chose to murder Fanucci and take over his rackets. He could have let Don Cicci live. Etc. Etc.

Michael chose to be the person who killed Sol & Mac. He had choices. He could have had the Family's newspapermen spread dirt on McCluskey, forcing him to distance himself from Sollozzo, then exposing Sollozzo to one of Sonny's 100 buttonmen. He could have gone to the meeting and have someone else ambush Mac and Sol. Or he could have said, "that's my Family, that's not me" or "this is the business they've chosen" and let the chips fall where they may.

Easy choices? No. But choices nonetheless.

Exactly Woltz. As we've postedin other threads, Michael could have walked away from his life at any time. One thing that never gets stated is that as a Mafia don, Vito and Michael presided over a vast criminal empire that included just about every piece of human scum who murdered, maimed, and otherwise destroyed the lives of God knows how many people.

There is no question that both Vito and Micheal made a choice to be a criminal and to remain a criminal, but dont all criminals make that choice. My contention is that Mike choice to kill Sol and the police captain to protect his family, he knew that without killing them his father would remain a target and would be killed eventually. I think that had Sonny not been killed, Mike would not have stayed in the family business beyond killing Sol and the Captain. As a good sicilian he could not leave his family and the family business without a Corelone at the helm.

Yes, and yes again. Michael had choices at every turn. I posted a thread about it here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post561802

Then what's the definition of "a good Sicilian"? Someone who obeys every order and remains loyal, no matter how cruel such a demand is?
What Vito called "family business" was robbery, infiltration of labor unions, loansharking, extortion, blackmailing, murder. Oh, and of course a little olive oil import.

You are what you do, not what you say you are. In Michael's case this is perfectly clear.

I was being a little sarcastic about being a good sicilian, but as a sicilian I was raised that no one comes before my family, nor was I ever to turn away from my family at a time of trouble, this line of thought is common in Sicilian and Italian familys. Is Micheal a Criminal, yes, is his upbringing an excuse to justify his decison making, no, but was joining the "family" business something he sat out to do, no, his decision to do so was forced by the perceived needs of his family.