What do you think is more of a complicated racket? I Would say bookmaking is because you got more numbers involved then 10 mathbooks put together and with Loansharking its basiclly percentenges and points anybody agree?

Yeah. But with loansharking you would need to have muscles...or at least a good baseball bat.

Every sucker can start a bookmaking operation, but loansharking is a bit different. Its the real deal.

There are plenty of independent shylocks out there, Muk. Especially today. Hell, I've known more than a couple women who have had money on the street at one time or another.

Collecting money is all about being persistent. Violence should always be a last resort, because it's so true: Dead men can't pay.

How would you collect money without using violence? If you are to weak, then they may rip you off. Serieus? Women?

I can't find it now but about 6 mths to 1 year ago there was an article in either NYT or WSJ about NY people (including many women) that were making high interest illegal loans to poor folks-mostly minority in the Bronx, Manhattan. Technically they were loan sharks though most of them did not have the sort of threat capacity/ruthlessness that we normally associate with loan sharks.

Their clientele was mostly other poor people like themselves. These were people that could not get a bank loan and were mostly unable to get payday loans. Also these are folks whose social networks wouldn't overlap with those of traditional OC loan sharks.

Usually there weren't implied threats of violence about late payment or lack of payment-being tossed out of the network and/or prevented from borrowing again was a big enough incentive to honor debts. The amounts discussed were very small but as most of these people were at the extreme low end of the working poor (or the non-working poor) the amounts could make a big difference in their lives.

Well that would made a difference, when i hear loansharking, i think of the Cosa Nostra way. So maybe you guys are right, and in some cases violence is not needed good girls

Well, it's never really about the violence. It's about the threat of violence.

What I don't get is why are people terrified of NOT paying back the money and percentage to the loan sharks? Wouldn't be it easier to call the cops on them when they threat you with violence? Loan sharking sounds like like risky business to me if you're handing out money to people you don't know.

Some of the people that deal with traditional OC loan sharks are not people that can call the cops. You can't call the cops if you're a crooked union agent who's been embezzling union funds and needs to go to the shylock to make up the difference until the next contract is approved. You can't go to the cops if you're taking loan shark funds to set up your next cocaine importation or start your very own escort agency. If you're a degenerate gambler calling in the cops would mean you're cut off from the loan shark's associated bookie network. No good.

That aside, even if you are an otherwise law abiding citizen, you may be leery of going to the police. You may not want anyone knowing your business. The loan shark and his friends may have a very well developed reputation for hurting people who cause them problems.

Loan sharking is a very very easy business for a criminal to get into. It doesn't require anything more than some seed money, some very basic math skills and a willingness to hurt people if need be. The up and coming loan sharks may even be looking for a few people to brutalize just to keep their rep up-especially if the people don't owe them much money.

But again, actual violence is not always needed-particularly if the debtor has collateral or other connections that the loan shark or his bosses/friends can capitalize on. Someone might get a new business partner or wind up doing illegal favors to work off a debt. The whole idea is to extort money, favors and fear for a very very long time-ideally forever.

Many mob guys may not be the brightest lights, but they do not lend money to people they do not know. Most of the borrowers are local people, active and living in the same neigborhoods where the loanshark conducts his business.

The most profitable loans are handed out to shady restaurateurs or other businessmen who can´t find credit elsewhere. In many cases, the loanshark ends up as a partner in the establishments when these borrowers can´t pay up.

The trick is not to kill a borrower, but to keep him alive and in constant fear of bodily harm if not paying the vig or repaying the loan. Of course, sometimes a litte bit of violence is necessary.

So I heard....

Ideally, operating a book should be fairly simple. The bookies intent is to balance the amount wagered on both sides equally. That way, he collects $11 from the losing side, pays $10 of that to the winning side, keeps the $1 vig as his profit, and has none of his own money at risk. Of course, it doesn't always go that smoothly. But that's where moving the line and laying off to other books comes in.

Philadelphia mob turncoat George Freselone gives some great insight into the business in his book "Blood Oath." He ran a very profitable sports betting operation for the Bruno family in North Jersey. But his partner, without him knowing it, would sometimes fail to lay enough off and they'd lose money in the short run. He said that didn't bother him so much because they could make that up within a few weeks. But it was getting the money in the meantime to pay the winners. So he had to borrow from a loanshark in his own family.

Freselone also said that, while a bookie will send the leg breakers out on occasion, especially if the bookie thinks a player is trying to cheat him, no amount of beatings are going to get the money from a guy who simply does not have it. And if the bookie leans too hard, he might cause the debtor to run to the cops. So he said it really is an art of getting players to lose and pay up willingly.

Some bookies also double as loansharks. Others will simply refer a debtor to a loanshark. And, as shown above, some bookies go to the loansharks themselves if they need to. Loansharking is also an art form because the same thing applies about not leaning too hard, dead guys not paying up, etc. That's where the mob has become very enterprising, i.e. bleeding a guy's business via a bust out, getting a tip on a score, or whatever.

Which one - if convicted - would give you more jail time? It always seemed to me that "numbers" was a personal vice. Individuals if they want to bet and lose, it's on them. Loansharking appears more aggressive and violent than losing twenty bucks on the play three.

You are right, Jimmy. Bookmaking is kind of looked upon as a harmless crime. I might say it´s even accetable. But when violence comes in to the picture, it´s a different tune.
The same could be said about the booze racket during the prohibition. The cops often chose to look the other way (and fed their pockets of course) when it came to bootlegging.

Aside from the threat or use of violence, another powerful way to get the suckers to pay up is to cut them off from more credit and spread the word that he's a bad payer. That will also do the trick and without the potential for his going to the cops and causing problems.

Running the Books is intellectual work.
All about logic, math, probability
Shylocking is taxing in another way, you gotta get a good mix of
of psychology and intimidation tactics, and for the unwise borrower be willing to dish out some painful incentives.
All depends on what you're equipped for, and ready to take on.
Me? I'd prefer sharking. Seems easier.
But managing a bok seems like if your smart in a Lefty Rosenthal kinda way the money just piles up hehe

mob loansharks usually charge 10%-25% interest in loans plus the vig, the vig may be 2%. I don't know but this is my guess. but in joe pistones book donnie brasco way of the wiseguy, mobsters have a 30 day loan called the chinese loan charged at 50% plus vig.

The vig is the interest. And, typically, it doesn't come off the principal debt. The vig (interest) is going to depend on how big the loan is, the relationship between the loanshark and the borrower, the time frame involved, which in turn involves the type of loan, etc.

A loanshark lends, say, 100K to a guy at 2 points a week. That's 2% or $2,000. That's just the interest for that week. The initial 100K debt still remains. So the loanshark is usually more than happy to let that debt ride forever because he's gained back the 100K in a year and everything after that is gravy.

Yes. The borrower keeps on paying vig every week until the principal loan of 100K (in this case),(and the whole of it) gets paid back.

Thanks for that, Ivy... I've forever wondered how the vig worked with the principal... and even more amazed how guys that barely made it through school can do that "higher" math...