the colombians,puerto ricans, mexicans and cartels from other countries seem to survive just a mere decade or two what is the reason for this since the mafia in NY is established since 1930 those guys(cartels) cant seem to survive 10 years. and also other syndicates or organizations (rudaj for example) are having a hard time to survive. and what is that the italians can survive so many years even after so many informants and all.

What do you mean? In Mexico for example nothing has really exchanged except balance of power, meanwhile some cartels/criminal organizations have gotten weaker, other cartels (Sinaloa Cartel and Los Zetas) have gotten a lot stronger because of that. The Colombian cartels still exist but are more numerous or easier to handle plus the Mexican cartels kinda replaced the Colombian cartels. I'm not sure what it's going to happen in Mexico because Mexico is next to the U.S and Mexicans have the geography, source of drugs and connections (other Hispanics/Colombians/Bolivians etc.) to be an important player in international drug trafficking.

Also, Mexico' Gulf Cartel has been going on since the 1920s, not that really matters but just throwing it out there.

the first mexican cartels started in the 70s i bet not in the 20s anyway italians survive so much because they have a secular criminal traditions and permanent criminal structures
the others that survived so much are triads and yakuza only all the other groups are extint or they survive little decades

The group that eventually lead to the Gulf Cartel started in the 1920s, but of course back then they were smuggling alcohol not drugs. Sinaloa Cartel, Tijuana, Juarez etc. started in the 1970s era or so.

All the other ethnic criminal groups will die and new ones will be born againt, but not with the Italian mafia. Thanks to the criminal structure and discipline that the others lack. They will always be there, and i am not talking about the main land italian mafia. The US italian mafia will also be here for now.
Thats the main reason why the others dont survive.

i mean for example medellin and the cali cartel and there arent pretty much organizations in west europe who are similar to the five families even the calabrians come here for a few years then they get screwed pretty fast because they lack manpower.

It really depends in a lot of things but every criminal group has different criminal structures even mafia families, for example the U.S government had a lot to do with the fall of Colombia's cartels(which they still exists). Colombia back then had a real enemy (FARC and guerrilla forces), and of course the cartels because Colombia is a weak country. So any of those groups could and were overthrowing the Colombian government, which meant U.S's influence/power in that part of the country/region/world was at risk. They had to go down no matter what....

Mexico in the other hand has the 13th largest economy(and their economy is booming even though there is a drug war) in the world and way less U.S influence, plus the cartels in Mexico can't, won't or have the power to overthrow the government because Mexico is somewhat of a strong state compared to the rest of the 150 or so countries. There are a lot of rumors to what Calderon's goal is(and U.S government to some extent), we will have to wait to find out. Like I said it really depends more on the situation than actual criminal structure, well at least in my opinion.

Look at the fall of the U.S mafia families compared to their power in the late 1950's, everything has a beginning and a end, nothing can last forever.

"i mean for example medellin and the cali cartel and there arent pretty much organizations in west europe who are similar to the five families even the calabrians come here for a few years then they get screwed pretty fast because they lack manpower."

the sicilian mafia in italy has a similar structure the ny families were formed by sicilians at the end of 1800

"Look at the fall of the U.S mafia families compared to their power in the late 1950's, everything has a beginning and a end, nothing can last forever"

yes but the italian mafia survived more than anyone, it's still present after centuries in italy and more than 1 century in the states

I wouldn't say they survived more but more like they have more history, depending on the situation of course.

"I wouldn't say they survived more but more like they have more history, depending on the situation of course"

i mean there's a temporal continuity, the mafia of the past is the same organization of the today mafia
only yakuza and triads have this sort of longevity

The mafia has been around much much longer than any cartel and it's ridiculous to compare the longevity of Mexican and Columbian cartels to the mafia.

To answer the TS's question, the reason the mafia survives is their structure and discipline that all others lack. Even kermits Mexican cartels are very chaotic and unstructured compared to the Italian mafia.

I don't really like going into these discussions because they usually turn into a pissing contest, again I never compared or intended to compare Colombian cartels or Mexican cartels to the Italian mafias or other criminal groups. All I said was that the current situation in said country/region is what matters most than criminal structure or discipline in the end.

Cartels are business organizations, not a way of life like LCN.

I think crime is a way of life. Period. Its a lifestyle as much for a petty thief as it is for a criminal genius. They want something for nothing, and will fuck you over to get it if you stand in their way;

People forget when they talk about the cartels in America that these are really trans-national enterprise syndicates at heart, and although a fair part, America is the definitely not all of its market; its exports to syndicates in Europe that send their drugs around the world. Dollar for dollar, their drug economies return far more on bad days then the average modern day LCN rackets.

LCN is nowhere near as strong as it was in the early half of the century, thats universally agreed.

Even still, we often read about connected bookmakers in NY running books that bring in hundreds of millions a year. Pretty impressive right? True, in NY at least, the mob is neither dead nor defanged.

Well the cartels bring in billions. Even split into so many factions, a fraction of that profit is still far exceeding the

what about the irish,jewish and black prohibition-era gangs and the westies what would the reason be that they went defunct?

Those gangs fell apart for the same reason the mafia is crumbling today. There were more opportunities besides crime for would-be Irish and Jewish hoodlums. On top of that, you had less Irish and Jewish immigration to fill the ranks of these organizations and the old neighborhoods. All of the shitty neighborhoods where street crime would thrive are gone (Hell's Kitchen, LES, etc). Well, there's still places like Harlem, Brownsville, and East New York. But even Harlem is gentrifying.

Cartel guys don't grow up in the life like mafia guys. They don't have making ceremonies or formal ranks. It's leaders are usually better educated than the lower-level guys. The Ochoa's were a wealthy family who got involved because it was the most profitable business out there. Totally different than LCN where people get involved due to lack of other opportunities and because it's what they grew up in. Unlike LCN theese guys make money only from one revenue source. Cartels come and go, in Colombia at least, Mexican cartels, since their on the ditriubtion end and can geographically siutated stay around.

Crumbling is a bit harsh isnt it? That would mean the Italian mafia will cease to excist in a couple of years, something does not crumble for 50 years.

Pablo Escobar was a normal street guy, Griselda Blanco was a prostitute, Chapo Guzman Loera sold oranges on the street corner, Osiel Cardenas was a municipal cop but ended up washing
cars for drug traffickers etc. All of these and more drug trafficking/cartel leaders grew up poor before they went into the life of crime.

Now about the ranks; Mexican cartels do have ranks but obviously they are all structured different. Los Zetas for example have the "halcones"/"falcons" they are the eyes and ears; these guys are the lowest ranking guys and their bosses are called "jefe de halcones" which sometimes are police officers. From there you have the street drug distributors, extortion rackets, piracy racket guys etc. and like the "halcones" they all have a local boss. Now the sicarios/assassins are in charge of protecting the guys above and going to war, they also have a boss which is called "jefe de sicarios". The halcones, racket guys/street distributors, assassins and their respected bosses respond to a "commadante"; the commadante is responsible for all of the cells in a certain part of a city; they too have a boss which is called "jefe de plaza" or plaza boss. The plaza boss is in charge of all the commadantes in the city or municipality; from the plaza boss is the core of the organization; the core group of Los Zetas.

Better opportunities and assimilation plays a part in gangs falling apart.

One difference with the Italian gangs is the life-long oath. After prohibition, many of the non-Italian bootleggers like Joseph Kennedy and Costello pal Bill Dwyer went legit. They went legit because they could. The Italian gangsters were stuck. What would happen to Frank Costello if he announced to everyone that he made enough money and wanted out?

I don't think crumbling is unfair to say. Outside of NY it certainly is. I don't think the NY families will cease to be in my lifetime (even the Colombos, despite their best efforts...the Genoveses will definitely have staying power). However, they are definitely not building up anymore. It's all downhill for the mob at this point, I think.

That is definitely true. I think bootlegging is a little different though. Frank Costello had a criminal empire, with proceeds coming in from a variety of schemes and criminal acts. For instance, look at Whitey Bulger. He was a gangster through and through. There's no way he could just go legit and have no one bat an eye.

But you're splitting hairs now. Regardless of how so and so came up, they still chose crime as their ultimate calling. And like I said in another trhead, even these days, sure certain LCN rackets are bringing in millions. The cartels consistently see returns in the billions.

I was once of the impression that havng organised the life into a true secret society, the LCN was the be all and end all of criminal conspiracy. Sure they're storied, sure there's an amazing history; but today the figures speak for themself. Between the FBI and DEA, the annual profits seen by the cartels is between 13 and 64 billiob dollars a year. Far beyond figures cited in some of the most succesful LCN rackets.

Interesting points. The Northern valle cartel had a lifespan of less than ten years, LCN is forever. Gambino family isn't going away anytime soon, nor are anyother crime families.

True. The cartels are constantly changing, like the hydra you cut off one head and several grow back to replace it. But you know whats gonna be aroung long after the Genovese, Gambino's etc. are long gone? Drug traffic. And there's always gonna be those traffickers movng ther product.

Even as considered an actual OC threat, which organization is most likely to affect the daily life of a US citizen? Even in to NY, to a degree, the cartels as whole are a far bigger threat to the people then the odd handful of LCN cells and families left around the country. Sure there are bookmaking operations and certain rackets that made them millionaires. The cartels are billionaires.

America has all the people, so of course America gets all the drugs...but these cartels are actually transnational in many cases. They sell their cocaine and exchange in other drugs around the world, and groups like the Ndranhgeta and Camorra use the profits some selling said drugs to invest in business, construction and public work bids that make them so formindable today.

The LCN still do that, just on a much smaller scale. And only with the the States, and even then mostly NY.

Go back to the 50's and 60's maybe, before RICO...maybe different.

As I've said many times, a good comparison to the South American and Mexican cartels are the crime syndicates in Italy, which operate on an international level. Not the American LCN.

mexican bosses are billionaire in mexico not the states, you are a bit confused mickey even dominicans are more involved in drugs than mexicans in new york and lcn in new york is far more powerful than cartels and anyone
like ivyleague said you can compare mexican cartels with italian oc in europe that earn billions, italian oc in europe are far richer than cartels in mexico

Nah dude. I think my point has not gotten across.

Within NY, its a different dynamic. As a regional power syndicate threat, they're number one, no doubt. But as an actual OC threat, they fall way short. And sure they're in Mexico, but most authorities put the figures into US dollars. They're making way more then LCN could hope too.

But you're right as far as Ndrangheta. Even though they supposedly buy direct from the cartel and drugs are a massive part of their income, they manage to parlay profits into construction and public works contracts, arms smuggling, prostitution, etc.

"But you're right as far as Ndrangheta. Even though they supposedly buy direct from the cartel and drugs are a massive part of their income, they manage to parlay profits into construction and public works contracts, arms smuggling, prostitution, etc."

i'm talking about italian mafia as a whole not 'ndrangheta only, camorra and cosa nostra and even sacra corona in europe earn billions too

Cosa Nostra is under a legal barrage, and have been for the last odd decade or so. This took a serious bite out of their earnings. And the Camorristi are too busy killing each other.

Despite it, both groups regularly make more then US LCN interests could hope for. Its the Ndrangheta that are estimated to have made some 43 billion euro's in 2007, 3% of Italys GDP though. Out of the 9% total various mafia interests are estimated to have accounted for that year, that leaves 6% to split between the the other two, assuming the Apulians account for even half a percent (I think Im being generous)

So they all make way more, but the Calabrians seem to be making that much more then the rest.

Sacra Corona do alright but dont really count on the same scale. There's not enough of them. If you are going to talk about them, you might as well mention the Basilichi of Basilicata and the old Mala Del Brenta of Veneto, since they'd account for such as small portion.