What train of thought did FFC want first time viewers to follow with regards to the question of who tried to kill Micheal?

At first, the viewer thinks it was Frank following Micheal's conversation with Roth. Then we are led to believe that it was Roth, after Micheal's meeting with Frank in NY. Then, when Frank is garotted - 'Micheal Corleone say hello', are the audience meant to think that it was actually Frank all along? Or is it purposely left ambiguous? What were you thinking the first time you saw the movie?

I wish I would remember, but I've seen the movie ten times already.

What I do remember is that I found that Rocco was acting a little suspiciously.

I had no doubt that it was Roth. The line during the garroting of Frankie has been debated endlessly on this Board. The conclusion of most is that it was an ablib by Aiello and FFC left it in.

What train of thought did FFC want first time viewers to follow with regards to the question of who tried to kill Micheal?

At first, the viewer thinks it was Frank following Micheal's conversation with Roth. Then we are led to believe that it was Roth, after Micheal's meeting with Frank in NY. Then, when Frank is garotted - 'Micheal Corleone say hello', are the audience meant to think that it was actually Frank all along? Or is it purposely left ambiguous? What were you thinking the first time you saw the movie?

I would like to put this to rest, once and for all:

Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Havana, get teh $2 million from him, and have him assassinated on his way home from the Presidential palace. So, according to Roth's plan, Michael would be dead before dawn on Jan. 1, 1959. The attempted killing of Frankie occurred days earlier. Why would Roth engage in an incredibly complex, incredibly risky, split-second-timed plot to have Frankie brought within seconds of death, and then have him rescued? So that he could testify against Michael at a Senate hearing months later, when, according to Roth's plan, Michael would already be long dead?

And, just suppose Roth did plan the cop's entry? How would he do it? Call a police lieutenant in the local precinct and say, "Hello, Shultz? Listen, I want you to send a cop to Richie's bar on Tuesday at 3:29 p.m. and 28 seconds...not 3:28, not 3:29 and 10 seconds, not 3:29 and 40 seconds--I want him there at 3:29 and 28 seconds. Got that? Good, let's synchronize watches..."

Years ago, someone here surfaced an early script treatment in which Roth was supposed to have engineered Frankie's rescue. It was never filmed that way. We can understand why: It's too far-fetched.

It was an ad-lib by Danny Aiello, and it made no sense, given that the Rosatos indended Frankie to be dead. So why did FFC leave it in? IMO, the line was not intended for Frankie, but for Richie, the bartender, whose ginmill was being used to set up Frankie:

It’s obvious that Richie is a “civilian,” not a Made Man, and he’s nervous as hell about his bar being used for a murder (“Carmine, NO, not HERE!” he screams at Tony’s brother (played by Carmine Caridi) after the cop enters and Carmine draws his gun). The Rosatos know that Richie might be squeezed by the cops investigating Frankie’s murder. Richie would be too fearful of the Rosatos to identify them as the killers. Still, as a civilian, Richie is not bound by the code of omerta. So they hand Richie something he can give the cops so that Richie can get off the hook: “The murderers said, ‘Michael Corleone says hello.’ ” That line would set the police after Michael, and would be picked up by the press-- another nail into the coffin of Michael Corleone’s “legitimacy.” Clever Roth!

Another question...

Are we assuming that Roth gave the go-ahead for Frank to be murdered or that the Rosato's took it upon themselves?

Also, Roth didn't really need/want the 2 million from Mike did he?

I believe Roth gave them the go-ahead. Roth probably told them he'd use his relationship with Michael to resolve the issue. So, they waited on his go-ahead. No doubt they heard about the Tahoe shooting. So, Roth must have told them: "Pentangeli tried to kill Michael. He failed. He gave me the go-ahead for you to whack him. Michael even conned him into meeting with you..."
BTW: What was in it for Roth? Had the Tahoe shooting succeeded, Frankie would have been on the run. The Rosatos would take over the olive oil business as Roth's allies, maybe even give him a cut of their take.


No, he didn't--and very insightful of you to spot that, Immobiliare.

Michael had been encroaching on Roth's gaming empire since returning from Sicily, even whacking Roth's best friend, Moe Green. Roth’s goal was to eliminate Michael. His strategy was to play on Michael’s obsession with becoming legitimate by pretending that Michael was his heir-apparent. Roth doled out bits and pieces of his empire to Michael, all the while buying time for an opportunity to have him killed. Roth’s strategy was succeeding.

The Havana deal would make Michael king of legalized gambling in the Western Hemisphere. Roth had tantalized Michael with the promise of his crown jewel prior to the Tahoe shooting. I’m guessing that Roth also told Michael, before the shooting, that he’d have to make a big payoff to Batista, the Cuban dictator. He may have mentioned $2 million, or he may not have put a price on it. At that point, getting the money wasn’t Roth’s primary goal. His goal was to buy time for an opportunity to whack Michael. The money for bribing Batista was a means for Roth to add credibility to his Havana-deal fiction: Michael would expect that a big bribe would be needed for him to get Batista’s permission.

Anthony’s party provided Roth with his golden opportunity to have Michael whacked, and to have the finger pointing at Pentangeli. Roth would have to forego the $2 million—but,so what? $2 million was a small price to forego to simultaneously get rid of Michael and Frankie, and put his own guys in charge of New York. Only after that plot failed did the $2 million become important to Roth. I'm guessing Roth needed the $2 million to pay off Batista to have his thugs kill Michael. Nice touch: Michael pays for his own assassination.

I would prefer a fanedit to the trilogy tying up loose ends and plot holes. Has that ever been done? Wouldn't be hard with access to all the deleted scenes.

I am sure someone has thought of this before -- but I never see it discussed. The Aiello line was crucial to the plot because it made Franky think that it WAS Michael, and that is why he testified against him.

Say there is no "Michael Corleone says hello". Does he still think that it's Mike? Does he testify against him?

Yes, it has been one of the Board's major discussion topics over the years.

Yes, and for once and for all, it was Manolo who opened the drapes, and Manolo who (using his skills as a ventriloquist) said "Michael Corleone says hello."