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If Sonny wasn't killed
#609609
08/02/11 09:36 AM
08/02/11 09:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
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If Sonny hadnt been killed, do you think Vito would have let him take over properly as the Don? Or would he have recognised that Micheal had more potential to be a better/more successful Don and 'stepped over' Sonny?
Interesting to consider, especially as we all know how Fredo felt about being subordinate to his younger brother.
Last edited by Immobiliare; 08/02/11 09:36 AM.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609623
08/02/11 12:04 PM
08/02/11 12:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,520 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
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AZ
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I've always believed that, if Vito'd had his way, Michael would have finished law school, ran for public office, and, as senator or governor, worked to legalize gambling, so that the Corleones' domination of illegal gambling could be legitimized. He'd also channel Vito's labor rackets into his own political machine, so he could dispense labor money and votes to politicians who cooperated with his legalized gambling plan. Sonny would be Michael's muscle, and the head of an ever-diminishing illegal Corleone enterprise. That would raise a very interesting alternative plot: power struggle between Sonny and Michael.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609627
08/02/11 01:32 PM
08/02/11 01:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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I agree that Michael would have gone to law school and laundered olive oil business money to "legitimate" operations. Being as manipulative as he was, I could easily see Michael dispatching Tom to Vegas as a front man to buy and operate the casinos (under Michael's watch). "You're not a consigliere, Tom, you are a god business man, and besides, if Sonny needs legal advice he can come to me. I want you to set Fredo and his men up, don't give him anything too big, just a mickey mouse night club and a whorehouse. I want you to take Neri and his men for muscle, but only with my approval. Find a way to move in on the casinos, We'll supply the money from here. The most important thing is to make this investment appear legitimate. "
The real problem would be Sonny. He was a street guy all the way, and I don't know what would have happened to him as Michael delegated the street stuff to others.
All in all my guess is if Sonny hadn't been killed when he was, he would have been killed later because of his temper. Maybe by Hyman Roth.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609655
08/02/11 09:29 PM
08/02/11 09:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
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Thanks for your responses but the main point of my original question remains unanswered.
To put it simply - as Vito's health deteriorated he would have had to make a decision as to who was going to take over as the Don - Sonny or Micheal?
Who do you think he would have chosen? If you think Micheal, what do you think would be the implications of Sonny being stepped over? Would he have shown the same resentment that Fredo did?
Last edited by Immobiliare; 08/02/11 09:30 PM.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609694
08/03/11 05:39 AM
08/03/11 05:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
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Joined: Jan 2008
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MI
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Vito was or at least later pretended to be somewhat ambivalent about Michael's entry into the criminal world and his subsequent ascension to acting Don.
I think Vito recognized that Michael would have been a better Don than Sonny but Michael had other talents which Sonny lacked, which would have made Michael a perfect bridge to the outside world or even more or less completely legitimate. And that is what in different ways, both Vito and Michael wanted.
If Sonny had survived Michael would not have felt obligated to take over the family business.
So I think the crown would have passed to Sonny. Michael would have been free to pursue a political or business career, no doubt aided by his family's influence. Ultimately it might have ended up something like the relationship between the brothers in the Prizzi's Honor novel, in which the older brother had the Mafia muscle and formal authority but the younger brother had the financial acumen and political/business ties.
I think both Michael and Sonny respected each other, which wouldn't have been the case with Fredo in the mix, so despite a few arguments and insults over the years I think this would have have been a stable and profitable relationship. Each of them gets to do what they're good at. Sonny runs the crews and plays tough guy; Michael uses his intellect and launders/invests money-provides political cover.
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Lilo]
#609712
08/03/11 09:42 AM
08/03/11 09:42 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
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Vito was or at least later pretended to be somewhat ambivalent about Michael's entry into the criminal world and his subsequent ascension to acting Don.
I think Vito recognized that Michael would have been a better Don than Sonny but Michael had other talents which Sonny lacked, which would have made Michael a perfect bridge to the outside world or even more or less completely legitimate. And that is what in different ways, both Vito and Michael wanted.
If Sonny had survived Michael would not have felt obligated to take over the family business.
So I think the crown would have passed to Sonny. Michael would have been free to pursue a political or business career, no doubt aided by his family's influence. Ultimately it might have ended up something like the relationship between the brothers in the Prizzi's Honor novel, in which the older brother had the Mafia muscle and formal authority but the younger brother had the financial acumen and political/business ties.
I think both Michael and Sonny respected each other, which wouldn't have been the case with Fredo in the mix, so despite a few arguments and insults over the years I think this would have have been a stable and profitable relationship. Each of them gets to do what they're good at. Sonny runs the crews and plays tough guy; Michael uses his intellect and launders/invests money-provides political cover. Great answer and its hard to disagree with any of it. How easy would it have been for Micheal to return to America, having commited double murder already and seen his wife blown up, an continue as a 'normal' citizen? I think theres evidence to suggest that Micheal knew when he first said goodbye to Kay that he was going to join family business and that once he got involved in the Mac and Sol situation that there was no other route for him to take.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609756
08/03/11 07:02 PM
08/03/11 07:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
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Great answer and its hard to disagree with any of it.
How easy would it have been for Micheal to return to America, having commited double murder already and seen his wife blown up, an continue as a 'normal' citizen?
I think theres evidence to suggest that Micheal knew when he first said goodbye to Kay that he was going to join family business and that once he got involved in the Mac and Sol situation that there was no other route for him to take.
Well we start to get into quantum decision points, no There are a lot of different paths that could have been taken. Michael returns after Sonny has already been murdered and Vito has sued for peace. But if Sonny survives does that mean that Sonny defeated (killed) Tattaglia ( and Barzini)? Per book Sonny was attempting to kill all the other Family heads but would movie Sonny have figured out that Barzini was the deadliest enemy? Would Vito have figured it out without the peace meeting? If Sonny and Vito handle their business perhaps Apollonia survives. Maybe Michael stays in Italy and takes over banks much earlier than events in GF3... Dunno. But let's say that Michael returns sans Apollonia but Sonny is alive. The Corleones are still able to remove all clouds of suspicion about the Sollozzo/McCluskey murders from Michael. I think that Sonny still gets the nod-especially if he's successfully wiped out Family enemies. I don't think Michael begrudges him that. No, Michael would not have been normal again; he's put in work. But he can still walk away if he chooses b/c there's a boss-in-waiting.
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609760
08/03/11 07:55 PM
08/03/11 07:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
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See, I think that's where my interpretation is a little different. I don't think Michael wanted the top spot, at least not while Sonny was alive. I think a lot of Michael's bile and anger in the second film (and a little in the first) comes from the fact that he felt trapped by obligation, love and pride into his role.
My take is that the Michael character feels "Oh so my destiny is to be a mob boss, huh. Ok, I'm going to be the meanest, deadliest greediest, coldest mob boss that ever existed! How you like them apples!!!" He's on a multi-decade temper tantrum against events that happened and decisions he made (that he later regretted).
But anyway, assuming for the sake of argument that Michael stayed involved in the operations end once he returned, I still don't see Vito giving him the nod. I think Vito would have had other plans for him.
I think Vito was always a little leery of Sonny's leadership abilities and wisdom and to use a phrase from Puzo, Sonny's (excessively) violent prosecution of the war would only have "confirmed his judgment". A Don shouldn't regularly lose his temper, make enemies unnecessarily or get caught not thinking. Remember in book, Tom is surprised that Sonny evidently thought his thing with Lucy was secret.
Again, though Sonny was the oldest, a huge asset to both his father and the Family and Sonny wanted the job. I think Vito would have given it to him despite his misgivings.
Another thing is that there is no evident jealousy/bitterness between Sonny and Tom or between Sonny and Michael as there was between Tom and Michael so with Vito and Tom acting as Sonny's brain trust until Vito's death I think Sonny might have managed to be a passable boss. He wouldn't have been as smart/detailed/cold as Michael but Michael could/would be doing other things that would bring in even more $$$/power. Michael can do Sonny's job but Sonny couldn't do what Michael could.
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Lilo]
#609761
08/03/11 08:06 PM
08/03/11 08:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Immobiliare
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See, I think that's where my interpretation is a little different. I don't think Michael wanted the top spot, at least not while Sonny was alive. I think a lot of Michael's bile and anger in the second film (and a little in the first) comes from the fact that he felt trapped by obligation, love and pride into his role.
My take is that the Michael character feels "Oh so my destiny is to be a mob boss, huh. Ok, I'm going to be the meanest, deadliest greediest, coldest mob boss that ever existed! How you like them apples!!!" He's on a multi-decade temper tantrum against events that happened and decisions he made (that he later regretted).
But anyway, assuming for the sake of argument that Michael stayed involved in the operations end once he returned, I still don't see Vito giving him the nod. I think Vito would have had other plans for him.
I think Vito was always a little leery of Sonny's leadership abilities and wisdom and to use a phrase from Puzo, Sonny's (excessively) violent prosecution of the war would only have "confirmed his judgment". A Don shouldn't regularly lose his temper, make enemies unnecessarily or get caught not thinking. Remember in book, Tom is surprised that Sonny evidently thought his thing with Lucy was secret.
Again, though Sonny was the oldest, a huge asset to both his father and the Family and Sonny wanted the job. I think Vito would have given it to him despite his misgivings.
Another thing is that there is no evident jealousy/bitterness between Sonny and Tom or between Sonny and Michael as there was between Tom and Michael so with Vito and Tom acting as Sonny's brain trust until Vito's death I think Sonny might have managed to be a passable boss. He wouldn't have been as smart/detailed/cold as Michael but Michael could/would be doing other things that would bring in even more $$$/power. Michael can do Sonny's job but Sonny couldn't do what Michael could. Love your first two paragraphs! I'm not certain that Micheal wanted top spot either and what you said is a very good observation! Also, out of curiousity, what is the evident jealousy between Tom and Micheal that you refer to? I can see it too in a way but I'd like to know what led you to that conclusion and see if they are the same factors that made me consider this.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609787
08/04/11 06:32 AM
08/04/11 06:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
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Also, out of curiousity, what is the evident jealousy between Tom and Micheal that you refer to? I can see it too in a way but I'd like to know what led you to that conclusion and see if they are the same factors that made me consider this.
I think that Michael was jealous of the close relationships that Tom had with Vito and Sonny. I also think he blamed Tom, rightly or wrongly, for Sonny's death. And from flashback at end of 2, Michael didn't appreciate Tom discussing Michael's life with "their" father. So when Michael took over he was a little colder to Tom than needed to be-putting Tom on the constant defensive- which allowed Michael to manipulate him more. I buy that Tom had to try to remain on good terms with someone who obviously had no problems having him murdered if it came to that. I'm not sure that Tom, who had already been accepted as a full brother/son by all of the other Corleones, would have been so needy of Michael's approval on a personal level.
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609807
08/04/11 10:23 AM
08/04/11 10:23 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
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I think theres evidence to suggest that Micheal knew when he first said goodbye to Kay that he was going to join family business ...
I don't think he had decided about it yet. When he was sitting outside meditating, he realized he's already too deeply involved in his family. (The business thing comes later.) When he visits Kay, he decides, that the situation has become too dangerous for her. At the hospital he realizes that he's not only willing to protect his father but able to deal with dangerous situations. The more Michael gets involved the more he confuses family and family business.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Lilo]
#609810
08/04/11 10:39 AM
08/04/11 10:39 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
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Also, out of curiousity, what is the evident jealousy between Tom and Micheal that you refer to? I can see it too in a way but I'd like to know what led you to that conclusion and see if they are the same factors that made me consider this.
I think that Michael was jealous of the close relationships that Tom had with Vito and Sonny. I also think he blamed Tom, rightly or wrongly, for Sonny's death. And from flashback at end of 2, Michael didn't appreciate Tom discussing Michael's life with "their" father. So when Michael took over he was a little colder to Tom than needed to be-putting Tom on the constant defensive- which allowed Michael to manipulate him more. I buy that Tom had to try to remain on good terms with someone who obviously had no problems having him murdered if it came to that. I'm not sure that Tom, who had already and been accepted as a full brother/son by all of the other Corleones, would have been so needy of Michael's approval on a personal level. Interesting that you say Micheal may have blamed Tom for Sonny' death - a good point that i'm inclined to probably agree with to an extent. The factors I think of with regards to the jealousy between them, however, is largely to do with Micheal joining the family business. I sometimes believe that Tom didn't want Micheal to join the business as it would have led to him being 'stepped-over'. Tom and Micheal shared the same good business acumen and Tom perhaps realised they may end up fighting for the same role.. A few events in the film which make me think this are: * When Tom say's 'maybe we shouldn't get Mikey involved' when Sonny ask him to visit Luca Brasi's house * The look on Tom's face when Micheal mentions his plan to kill Sol and Mac, everyone else laughs it off but Tom seems concerned/wary * Tom's face when Micheal ask him to step outside when meeting with Ola, there seems to be a look of rejection The relationships between all the brothers is fascinating. Jealousy, one-upmanship, bitterness all combined whilst fighting for thier fathers approval. One of Vito's greatest challenges must have been to manage the relationships between his children, whilst being head of the most powerful mafia family. He must have turned in his grave when Fredo was killed.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Danito]
#609811
08/04/11 10:40 AM
08/04/11 10:40 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
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When he visits Kay, he decides, that the situation has become too dangerous for her. Why would it have been dangerous for Kay? It's a common rule in the mafia not to hurt wives or civilians. I think he just wanted to keep to himself for the time being to sort things out. He didn't want to put the burden on her shoulders by involving her in the situation.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609812
08/04/11 10:46 AM
08/04/11 10:46 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
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* The look on Tom's face when Micheal mentions his plan to kill Sol and Mac, everyone else laughs it off but Tom seems concerned/wary I think Tom was more concerned (from a consigliere's perspective) about what the result would be and the implicated risks it would bring to murder Sollozzo and a police captain. The relationships between all the brothers is fascinating. Jealousy, one-upmanship, bitterness all combined whilst fighting for thier fathers approval. One of Vito's greatest challenges must have been to manage the relationships between his children, whilst being head of the most powerful mafia family. Most def, it's the main theme of the first film and original novel.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#609813
08/04/11 10:52 AM
08/04/11 10:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
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When he visits Kay, he decides, that the situation has become too dangerous for her. Why would it have been dangerous for Kay? It's a common rule in the mafia not to hurt wives or civilians. I think he just wanted to keep to himself for the time being to sort things out. He didn't want to put the burden on her shoulders by involving her in the situation. Yes I agree that he didn't want to burden Kay by involving her in the situation. He knew its was going to be a messy affair and that he would most likely have to get his hands dirty and wanted to keep Kay seperate from that. I do think, however, there is an element of danger that he wanted her to protect her from. Though wives and civilians were not targeted it doesn't stop them from getting hurt occassionally, wether intentionally or not, see Appollonia and Micheal having his face broken.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#609814
08/04/11 10:57 AM
08/04/11 10:57 AM
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* The look on Tom's face when Micheal mentions his plan to kill Sol and Mac, everyone else laughs it off but Tom seems concerned/wary I think Tom was more concerned (from a consigliere's perspective) about what the result would be and the implicated risks it would bring to murder Sollozzo and a police captain. I see your point. I also interpreted thaat look to suggest that Tom was the one that was most aware of how cold/calculating and dangerous Mike could be. The others found it funny but Tom realised instantly that he was deadly serious.
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Re: If Sonny wasn't killed
[Re: Immobiliare]
#609828
08/04/11 11:53 AM
08/04/11 11:53 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
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I do think, however, there is an element of danger that he wanted her to protect her from. Though wives and civilians were not targeted it doesn't stop them from getting hurt occassionally, wether intentionally or not, see Appollonia and Micheal having his face broken. You're right about that. Let's not forget that afwul ending of Part III when Marry is hit. But in real life, things like that don't usually happen. Guys are getting killed when they are away from their wives or children.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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