He gave up a lot in height and weight....Rocky even had a shorter reach than Floyd Mayweather. He would have given up 60 lbs and 6 inches in weight/height to Lennox and the Klitchko brothers in their primes.
Archie Moore, Walcott, Joe louis, & Ezzard Charles all had greater reach than Mayweather, yet Rocky beat 'em all.
I know Marciano was undefeated, but to me that only means so much considering who he fought and all the top name guys he fought were far from their prime and pretty much washed up by the time the rock fought them. Marciano would never of become the champion in the 70's. Multiple guys would of beaten him in my opinion.
Marciano and Frazier would of been a real good fight to see. Two smaller heavyweights and both were sluggers.
I don't mean to sound like i'm degrading Marciano. He fought who was around at the time. No fault of his that the shape of the heavyweight division when he was the champ wasn't that impressive.
It just drives me crazy when some guys say he was the best fighter ever or even among the top few. I just don't think he really was.
But once again it's just my opinion.....and you know what they say about opinions. lol
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,449 New Jersey
the people who claim marciano was the greatest are likely the same dopes who will stand by the claim that babe ruth was one of the best. the bottom line is that athletes, regardless of what sport, get better every generation. there are a few exceptions, but it almost always holds true, so it gets real tricky when comparing guys from different eras! its hard to pick the best heavyweight, but i really believe that had cus d'amato not died so early in his career, that he would have been able to keep tysons head in the game and would allow him to utilize the most amazing skillset of any heavyweight fighter in history to its full potential. fuck the heavyweights though, this was the 1st fight that i ever saw live, a real fucking treat!
It's either blue cheese with wings or go fuck yer mudda!
Loved watching Gatti fight on HBO. A few real brutal fights.
Very true Five Felonies about trying to compare fighters from different eras.
You know who was a real wildman but WAY before our time was Jack Johnson. I watched a really good show on him and pretty much all white people hated him because i think he was the first black champion and he went out with white women but he just didn't care. Real good show.....that guy was something else. He was a real good fighter too. The fights were much longer back then and sometimes they fought until one guy couldn't go on any longer. In his prime he used to beat just about everyone.
Jack Johnson was a fascinating boxer who had more pressure than anyone else, imo. He's my favorite fighter from before my generation.
He was the ultimate villain or underdog, depending on one's point of view. When he won a title match against a white man, dozens of black people were lynched. How many athletes can deal with the pressure of their success causing deaths and race riots? In addition, the racist press was openly seeking a great white hope to defeat him.
Plus, he had to contend with his own government unfairly coming after him for bigoted reasons. Nailing him with the Mann Act was a farce....all because he dated white women and KO'ed white men. Even Ali didn't have to deal with this much.
I'm hoping that he receives his well deserved pardon...
You shit-kicking, stinky, horse-manure-smelling motherfucker you! If you ever get out of line over there again, I'll smash your fucking head so hard you won't be able to get that cowboy hat on. You hear me? Fucking hick. -Nicky (Casino)
Thanks LittleMan i was actually going to see if i could find that after i mentioned it in my post.
Johnson definitely liked the white girls and back then that really created much anger and hatred towards him. Then add to that hatred the fact that he was KOing all the top white fighters like you said and the result was pretty brutal for him. But he just didn't care.
Giancarlo i don't think being the 9th or 10th greatest HW is an insult earlier, i was responding to sgwaue saying he was top 5 no doubt.
I've also always said Marciano was highly overrated too, i've actually said so on this site before. Rocky's biggest wins were against a washed up Louis,Walcott,Moore and Charles. He also should've lost the decision against Ronald La Starza, and was champ in probably the weakest ever HW division.
Fighters i think were definitely better than the both of them:
1.Ali 2.Louis 3.Holmes 4.Foreman 5.Holyfield 6.Liston 7.Lewis 8.Tyson 9.Jack Johnson
I also think arguments could me mad for Ezzard Charles and Floyd Patterson. The fighter i find really hard to rank is Jack Dempsey, because it's well know he avoided the top black fighters especially Sam Langford.
It's a real shame what has become of boxing. These days it seems people rather watch the MMA stuff which i enjoy too. But i miss the old rivalries and great fights and fighters i grew up watching. Theres still a good fight every once in awhile but to me it's nothing like it used to be.
As a kid there was no cable tv so i used to listed on the radio and they would have a reporter watching the fight at one of the closed circuit locations and the guy would come out in between rounds and update what was happening. The Foreman-Ali fight he's coming out round after round saying how Foreman was just beating on Ali and then i think it was the 8th round the guy couldn't even talk and he just started blurting out Ali knocked him out! Ali knocked him out! Thats all he kept saying. It was really late at night but i was a huge Ali fan as a kid and i'm jumping up and down on my bed just yelling Ali ! Ali! lol! My mother came in screaming at me and then my dad came in and asked what the hell was going on and when i told him Ali just KO'd Big George he couldn't believe it and told my mom to shut up so we could listen to what the guy on the radio was saying. One of my favorite sports moments of all time is when Ali took Big George out that day.
Re: Any Boxing Fans on here?
[Re: Giancarlo]
#734297 08/13/1306:37 PM08/13/1306:37 PM
It's a real shame what has become of boxing. These days it seems people rather watch the MMA stuff which i enjoy too. But i miss the old rivalries and great fights and fighters i grew up watching. Theres still a good fight every once in awhile but to me it's nothing like it used to be.
As a kid there was no cable tv so i used to listed on the radio and they would have a reporter watching the fight at one of the closed circuit locations and the guy would come out in between rounds and update what was happening. The Foreman-Ali fight he's coming out round after round saying how Foreman was just beating on Ali and then i think it was the 8th round the guy couldn't even talk and he just started blurting out Ali knocked him out! Ali knocked him out! Thats all he kept saying. It was really late at night but i was a huge Ali fan as a kid and i'm jumping up and down on my bed just yelling Ali ! Ali! lol! My mother came in screaming at me and then my dad came in and asked what the hell was going on and when i told him Ali just KO'd Big George he couldn't believe it and told my mom to shut up so we could listen to what the guy on the radio was saying. One of my favorite sports moments of all time is when Ali took Big George out that day.
Agreed, there's too many different world titles now, and most fighters are looking to hang in for 12 rounds for the decision for barely punching the other guy.
That Ali-Foreman fight was amazing you could tell he was no longer in his prime but he still found a way to beat one of the hardest ever punchers. There's a sad part to that fight though because it must have been one of the main factors in his health prolems nowadays.
There is no contest. Boxing is way better than MMA. If you like MMA more than boxing than you werent a boxing fan to begin with. The fights that are on Showtime these days are very entertaining. Forget the belts, I just watch the fights.
Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Vinnie that MMA shit has become huge whether we like it or not. Never said it was better then boxing just that i'll watch it when fighters i like are on. I like stand up more then i like the ground game stuff but that shit really has caught on with the younger guys.
Im a boxing guy all my life. Grew up in a great era (at least i think so)when i think boxing was at it's peak. Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Hagler,Chavez etc etc. Just some great fighters that put on great fights. And for me the 70's with the heavyweights were my favorite time as a fan. Just my take on it, everyone is free to think what they want.
That Ali-Foreman fight was amazing you could tell he was no longer in his prime but he still found a way to beat one of the hardest ever punchers. There's a sad part to that fight though because it must have been one of the main factors in his health prolems nowadays.
Always thought Ali should of retired right after that fight. He took a real beating those last few years.
As an Ali fan i thought that was a great fight because everyone back then thought Foreman was going to bust Ali into pieces. Around a week after the fight i finally saw the video of it. If you remember back then they would play the fight around a week later on the Wide World of Sports with Howard Cosell. So if you weren't able to get to one of the closed circuit places showing a fight they usually had all the big fights on Wide World of Sports about a week or 2 after the fight. Back then there really wasn't cable tv like we have today so our options were limited.
The interesting part of Rocky Marciano's legacy is simply this.....what if he indeed had one loss? Then his record would be 49-1. Imo, that one loss would have dropped him way down the all time ranks. Contrastly, when Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Tyson, and Louis lost a fight at the end of their careers, it didn't damage their legacies very much.
Camarel, I like your top ten list. I especially like that you gave both Holmes and Foreman their proper credit as I believe they both are underrated when discussing the all time greats.
However, I'd have Lennox Lewis higher on the list as he was the top heavyweight of his generation. Tyson would be left off as his greatest win was against a small Michael Spinks. Both Klitchko brothers make my list. I think that large, tall, athletic heavyweights have a big advantage over shorter opponents 40-60 pounds lighter.
You shit-kicking, stinky, horse-manure-smelling motherfucker you! If you ever get out of line over there again, I'll smash your fucking head so hard you won't be able to get that cowboy hat on. You hear me? Fucking hick. -Nicky (Casino)
Re: Any Boxing Fans on here?
[Re: LittleMan]
#734343 08/13/1309:01 PM08/13/1309:01 PM
The interesting part of Rocky Marciano's legacy is simply this.....what if he indeed had one loss? Then his record would be 49-1. Imo, that one loss would have dropped him way down the all time ranks. Contrastly, when Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Tyson, and Louis lost a fight at the end of their careers, it didn't damage their legacies very much.
Camarel, I like your top ten list. I especially like that you gave both Holmes and Foreman their proper credit as I believe they both are underrated when discussing the all time greats.
However, I'd have Lennox Lewis higher on the list as he was the top heavyweight of his generation. Tyson would be left off as his greatest win was against a small Michael Spinks. Both Klitchko brothers make my list. I think that large, tall, athletic heavyweights have a big advantage over shorter opponents 40-60 pounds lighter.
We'll have to agree to disagree about Mike, i believe the 80's Tyson could have bet just about anyone. As well as his well documented power he had amazing speed and reflexes after the Douglas fight he was never really the same though. Also i'd say Berbick, "bonecrusher" Smith, Tucker, Tubbs and Bruno were all tough competition. And even though he was a shadow of his former self Holmes was still a good HW, i totally agree that a prime Holmes would;ve annihilated Tyson though.
I admit i have a bias against the Klitschko brothers and just about any HW of this generation. Just because their brand of boxing is so boring. I'll give it to them though Wlad is by far the best HW of this generation and Vitali has one of the best chins i've ever seen.
Re: Any Boxing Fans on here?
[Re: LittleMan]
#734346 08/13/1309:05 PM08/13/1309:05 PM
The interesting part of Rocky Marciano's legacy is simply this.....what if he indeed had one loss? Then his record would be 49-1. Imo, that one loss would have dropped him way down the all time ranks. Contrastly, when Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Tyson, and Louis lost a fight at the end of their careers, it didn't damage their legacies very much.
Camarel, I like your top ten list. I especially like that you gave both Holmes and Foreman their proper credit as I believe they both are underrated when discussing the all time greats.
However, I'd have Lennox Lewis higher on the list as he was the top heavyweight of his generation. Tyson would be left off as his greatest win was against a small Michael Spinks. Both Klitchko brothers make my list. I think that large, tall, athletic heavyweights have a big advantage over shorter opponents 40-60 pounds lighter.
Also the fight Marciano should've lost imo was against La Starza, when he was 27 and arguably in his prime.
Re: Any Boxing Fans on here?
[Re: Giancarlo]
#734348 08/13/1309:13 PM08/13/1309:13 PM
That Ali-Foreman fight was amazing you could tell he was no longer in his prime but he still found a way to beat one of the hardest ever punchers. There's a sad part to that fight though because it must have been one of the main factors in his health prolems nowadays.
Always thought Ali should of retired right after that fight. He took a real beating those last few years.
As an Ali fan i thought that was a great fight because everyone back then thought Foreman was going to bust Ali into pieces. Around a week after the fight i finally saw the video of it. If you remember back then they would play the fight around a week later on the Wide World of Sports with Howard Cosell. So if you weren't able to get to one of the closed circuit places showing a fight they usually had all the big fights on Wide World of Sports about a week or 2 after the fight. Back then there really wasn't cable tv like we have today so our options were limited.
The amazing thing about Ali is after his win against Foreman he still went onto beat soe of the best HW'S Frazier, Norton, Spinks and another one of the hardest ever punchers Earnie Shavers. It's crazy to think what would've happened if he hadn't missed those 4 years during his prime.
Tyson really went off the rails after he became champ. A real shame, going to prison and all the bullshit that went on around him. Just total insanity. Then with Don King taking him over and robbing him blind. The insanity with his marriage to Robin Givens and that mother of hers. Just one thing after another, i'm kind of surprised he lasted as long as he did to tell you the truth. He was a devastating puncher though. Guys were scared to death of him and some were actually shaking when they entered the ring to fight him. I think a real big slugger like Foreman might of been able to handle Mike but i'm just speculating on that. A young Larry Holmes - Tyson fight would of been great. It probably would of been like the Ali-Frazier fights back in the 70's.
Re: Any Boxing Fans on here?
[Re: Giancarlo]
#734351 08/13/1309:27 PM08/13/1309:27 PM
Tyson really went off the rails after he became champ. A real shame, going to prison and all the bullshit that went on around him. Just total insanity. Then with Don King taking him over and robbing him blind. The insanity with his marriage to Robin Givens and that mother of hers. Just one thing after another, i'm kind of surprised he lasted as long as he did to tell you the truth. He was a devastating puncher though. Guys were scared to death of him and some were actually shaking when they entered the ring to fight him. I think a real big slugger like Foreman might of been able to handle Mike but i'm just speculating on that. A young Larry Holmes - Tyson fight would of been great. It probably would of been like the Ali-Frazier fights back in the 70's.
I personally don't think a Holmes-Tyson fight would last too long. Holmes had a similar reach to Lewis he also had more power and speed imo, and an even more devastating left jab. It's certainly an interesting hypothetical though.
Re: Any Boxing Fans on here?
[Re: Camarel]
#734352 08/13/1309:30 PM08/13/1309:30 PM
The amazing thing about Ali is after his win against Foreman he still went onto beat soe of the best HW'S Frazier, Norton, Spinks and another one of the hardest ever punchers Earnie Shavers. It's crazy to think what would've happened if he hadn't missed those 4 years during his prime.
Thats the point i always try to make when i talk about Ali. To me the pre 68 Ali was at his ultimate prime and just a truly skilled boxer. When he came back a few years later his legs were gone. He couldn't move like he used to. The best years of his career would of been during those years he was suspended. You watch those last few fight s of his before they stripped him of the title and i think he was just amazing.
Re: Any Boxing Fans on here?
[Re: Camarel]
#734356 08/13/1309:37 PM08/13/1309:37 PM
Boxing is the best sport. Did you see Soto Karass Berto? Did you see Bradley Provodnikov? Every month there is a great fight on Tv. Anyways, i don't really agree with the heavyweight hypos because earlier eras would have trouble agaisnt hte current era. Come on. Marciano 5-10 Paisan against 6-7 Klitchko? You really think Rock had a shot? The hypos that make sense to me are the lower weights. Welter, middle. Pryor Pac man? ARguello Mayweather at 140? Think about that.
Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Vinnie is that for me? I pretty much said what i thought about Marciano. Highly over rated. I think multiple guys i've seen over the years would of have beaten him.
A great fight is a great fight no matter when it was fought. Now or years ago.
It's all good Vinnie....i appreciate your point of views. Always good to shoot the shit with another boxing fan.
Na i was just speaking generally. I was saying comparing heavyweights from other eras doesnt work, because of size. If a 6-1 195 Joe Louis fought a 6-7 260 Klitchko he'd have no shot. I think its more interesting at the lower weights.
Last edited by vinnietoothpicks26; 08/13/1311:42 PM.
Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Anyways, i don't really agree with the heavyweight hypos because earlier eras would have trouble agaisnt hte current era. Come on. Marciano 5-10 Paisan against 6-7 Klitchko? You really think Rock had a shot?
Maybe not, but that size is not exactly new. Primo Carnera was just under 6-6 with a longer reach than Klitchko, but still lost to Joe Louis. What gets me is some people will say you can't compare boxing eras and pooh-pooh someone like Marciano, but afterward will say Joe Louis was one of the greatest of all time, undermining their own logic. Floyd Mayweather is currently 36, close to the same age as Louis (age 37) lost to Marciano, but still considered at the top of his game.
Marciano beat Charles, Walcott and La Starza two times each, but I guess that isn't good enough... lol. I don't think he was the best, but better than what some people give him credit for.
I still think Tyson in his prime (with Kevin Rooney as trainer) would beat just about anyone.
Last edited by ht2; 08/14/1312:00 AM.
Re: Any Boxing Fans on here?
[Re: ht2]
#734412 08/14/1312:12 AM08/14/1312:12 AM
Anyways, i don't really agree with the heavyweight hypos because earlier eras would have trouble agaisnt hte current era. Come on. Marciano 5-10 Paisan against 6-7 Klitchko? You really think Rock had a shot?
Maybe not, but that size is not exactly new. Primo Carnera was just under 6-6 with a longer reach than Klitchko, but still lost to Joe Louis. What gets me is some people will say you can't compare boxing eras and pooh-pooh someone like Marciano, but afterward will say Joe Louis was one of the greatest of all time, undermining their own logic. Floyd Mayweather is currently 36, close to the same Louis (age 37) lost to Marciano, but still considered at the top of his game.
Marciano beat Charles, Walcott and La Starza two times each, but I guess that isn't good enough... lol. I don't think he was the best, but better than what some people give him credit for.
I still think Tyson in his prime (with Kevin Rooney as trainer) would beat just about anyone.
Marciano was a great HW, i'd probably have him no.10 all time. Noone can say that Louis wasn't completely past it while Marciano was at his peak though. Jersey Joe had lost 7 of his 17 previous fights before fighting Marciano, not exactly prime opposition if you ask me. Moore was a great fighter but was a natural light heavyweight imo and was also a lot older than Marciano, but i give Rocky those 2 fights.
As i have already stated i believe La Starza should've won the first ffight when both were undefeated. Charles was also a natural LH, who had started his career at middleweight. His 2 victories against Ezzard were imo the best of his career. The only thing aout Charles was that he had gotten alot less aggresive after he killed that guy.
I also don't think Floyd is as good as he ever was imo his peak was from the late 90s until the mid 2000's. No argument from me about the 80's Tyson.
Are you serious? Jersey Joe was 38 and 39 when he fought The Rock. It was the last fight of Joe Louis career or close to it. He was broke and owed a fortune so he took the fight.
Seriously i don't want to bad mouth Marciano but c'mon now. Who took a punch better then Ali? Ali would of been dancing circles around Marciano. Liston would of ko'd him same with Foreman, Shavers and all those HUGE sluggers. I think Holmes would of beaten him and Lennox Lewis probably too. You know those big guys with the great jabs. Tyson i think would of KO'd Rocky too.
I'm italian and i'm glad Marciano went undefeated but i just don't think he was as good as his record would seem to make him.
But if you think he was.. then great. It's just our opinions. Thats why we're all fans.
I definitely don't mean to insult Marciano, he fought everyone that was around at the time.
You guys like the Klitchko's? I just get bored to death watching their fights. I don't know.
What do you guys think?
If you've never seen that documentary on Jack Jones "Unforgiveable Blackness", that LittleMan posted the link to you guys should check it out. I haven't seen it in awhile but i thought it was really good.
