I was just interested in your opinions about who ordered the hit on Geary's whore in Fredo's brothel in Part 2. The actual hit takes place after Michael had made Tom the Don, so it leads one to think the Tom could have ordered it. Of course, after Geary's little speech at Anthony's First Communion, you also have to assume that Michael had plans for the Senator, so maybe Tom was just carrying out orders he had previously recieved from Michael.

I only ask because knowing who thought up and ordered the murder is pretty insignificant if it is in fact Michael who does so. However, if Tom is indeed the mastermind I think it adds an interesting dimension to his character. Having served within the Family for all those years, he obviously had to have been involved previously with some sort of violence, but we never see it in the movies. The only time Tom shows any inclination toward violence is when the target is a horse. Every other instance in the movie where Tom is discussing possible violence, he is trying to convince his Don to maintain peace. Two examples would be Sonny against the Tattaglias and Michael against Roth in the boathouse. Conjuring up and ordering the brothel blackmail shows that maybe Tom wouldn't have been as bad a wartime consigliere as Michael previously thought.

First of all, I never really thought of thought of the killing of the prostitute as a 'hit'. But it's true she was done away with for the sole purpose of setting up Geary, so I guess that's what it was!!

Second...yes it's been discussed on the BB before and it would appear that it was indeed Tom who set the whole thing up. It may have been discussed with Michael that something would have to be done with the Senator, as they definitely needed him in their pocket after the Communion 'meeting'. But Tom probably arranged the setup after Michael had already left for Florida.

(Lucky break I suppose, that Geary happened to conduct his 'private business' at Fredo Corleone's whorehouse.)

Third, no matter how you slice it, Tom was calculating and cunning and a great lawyer, but definitely NOT a wartime consiglieri. Sonny's murder pretty much proved that.

Apple

Let's go back to GF1 for a moment. Remember Woltz and the scene with the horse's head in his bed? No one "ordered a hit" against a horse. It was a warning, a wake up call so he would know the far-reaching power of the Corleone Family. The murder of the prostitute was a warning to Geary just how powerful Michael was. To think Geary had the nerve to ask for $20000. for a gambling license! As to who killed the girl, I've always thought it was probably Neri, although no one knows for sure. But did you notice how he was hovering in the background in the shadows and Tom Hagen motioned for him to leave the room. And wasn't he drying his hands? Makes me think he was washing them for some reason --- perhaps to get rid of the blood?

Hagen wouldn't have ordered that hit on his own, especially since it involved the entrapment of someone very important (Senator Geary). See this thread:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006113#000000

As Tom was 'acting Don', a position bestowed upon him by Michael Corleone himself...he most certainly would have been in a position to not only set up the sting of Sen. Geary, but also to order the killing of the prostitute who just happened to work for Fredo, just happened to be Geary's favorite whore, and just happened to have no family.

And...of course it was Neri who actually killed the girl, and who probably drugged Geary as well.

Not that anyone's asked...but I'm sure it's clear to all that the reason we even see Neri is so that the audience knows for sure that it was indeed a Corleone setup, and that Geary really didn't kill the girl during some sort of blackout.

Apple

I must disagree with you on this one Apple. My thinking here is that BEFORE Geary met with Michael and acted the way that he did, Michael had already put a plan into action on how he would get Geary to cooperate with the Corleones just in case he refused to at that meeting.

Something tells me that Michael knew, before his meeting with Geary, that the Senator frequented Fredo's brothel. Michael, like Vito, always made sure that he had background information available ( like Vito finding out about Sollozzo before meeting with him) before meeting with someone that he would be negotiatiing with.

So my feeling is that Michael, knowing the Senator's reputation before hand, found out about his infidelities before that meeting and had already put this plan in action just in case the Senator would play hardball with Michael, as he obviously did when they finally met.


Don Cardi

Sure, why not.

A

Don't you agree with my assesment of Michael and his careful planning of things and his forsight of putting a backup plan into action before hand?

You have to admit that it makes more sense than thinking that Tom and Neri threw this whole plan into action after the Geary meeting, during all the confusion that took place after the hit attempt on Mike.


Don Cardi

I don't necessarily agree or disagree. Unlike other GF topics, I don't consider this one worth debating. Your assessment is certainly a reasonable one, so I'm happy to go along with it.

Apple

Apple, have you caught the Tony Soprano "epiphany?"



Don Cardi

Only this time.

Watch somebody get started on Fredo again and you know I'll go on for days!

Apple

Well, being that you brought up Fredo, wouldn't it make sense that he was also involved in this plan to get Geary? After all it was his brothel that Geary frequented, and therefore he had to be the one to inform Mike that Geary was a regular customer of the brothel.

BTW Apple, I have to give credit where credit is due because you've finally came into the 20th century by reading The Godfather Novel, but have you completed your journey by getting HBO so that you can now watch the Sopranos?


Don Cardi

Yes, absolutely.

And he also drugged Geary's drink, killed the whore, and called Tom.

Having already opened the drapes and gunning downt the would-be assasins, it's clear that he was perfectly capable of all of this.

Neri was there only to clean up.

Apple

Hey, he's smart, he can do things. Not like everyone else says. He's not dumb, he's smart.

However, I still say that Fredo didn't know.


Don Cardi

I only read the novel because you gave it to me, a wonderful gesture of friendship for which I am forever appreciative.

When you call my cable company to have HBO installed and then agree to pay the extra premium per month, then I'll be happy to begin watching The Sopranos.

Ol' Buddy, ol' pal.



Apple

And I agree.

You always seem to get me & SB mixed up on that topic!!

Apple

No I don't. I'm fully aware that the lady who sat next to me at dinner that night was on my side during that debate.


Don Cardi

There's a character named Fredo in The Godfather??

Turnbull, thanks for the link. I don't know how I missed that thread before?

I had always assumed when watching the film that Michael was the mastermind behind the hit, but when watching it on AMC the other night, the thought hit me that maybe it was Hagen. I would agree that it was Michael in charge. There's no way he was letting Geary get away with talking to him like that, and with his superfreak, controlling personality, there's no way he would just assume Tom would take care of it.

No one ever said that Tom ordered a "hit" on Khartoum, but he more than likely was the one who came up with the idea of using the horse to get to Woltz since he is the only one present. I only brought that up because that is the only time we see a ruthless side to Tom in either of the movies.

As far as who actually killed the prostitute, of course it was Neri. That was one of the few details about GFII that was made quite clear to the audience. I was referring to who ordered the hit, not carried it out.

It seems to me, if memory serves me correctly, not only in the novel but also in the GF1, the Don met with Luca Brasi sometimes to "personally instruct" him what to do regarding certain matters. It is only my assumption (and speculation) that Michael met secretly with Neri to instruct him how to handle certain matters. Makes sense to me that if only 2 people knew, there was less chance of someone else finding out. Neri was Michael's man to the end, make no mistake about that. Omerta, omerta, omerta. We'll never know the real answer, as this is all speculation and supposition. Only Puzo knows all the answers, and he's not talking.

The only times Don Vito and Luca 'met' in GF (the film) were when Luca paid his respects on Connie's wedding day, and when Vito gave him orders to approach Sollozzo...which of course, led to the end of Luca.

Apple

I'm not saying you're wrong, Jimmy, but I always inferred that it was the Don's idea to kill the horse. In a deleted scene, Tom meets with the Don, who says, "Tell Luca Brasi to see me, I think we're gonna find a way to reason with this Mr. Jack Woltz." I believe that Luca reported to the Don directly, not through Hagen, so I infer that the Don told Luca to kill Khartoum. Of course, the Don could only have learned about Woltz's affection for the horse after hearing Tom's account of his meeting with Woltz, but it may not have been Tom's suggestion to do the deed.
The novel more than implies that it was Vito's idea. Vito questions Tom minutely on the meeting, then gives him detailed instructions that leave Tom "dazed with admiration" for Vito's cunning. "There was no doubt that Johnny would get the part," in Tom's mind, after getting his instructions from Vito.

What's possibly confusing about the 'Khartoum' thing is that from viewing the film alone, one might get the impression that the killing took place overnight upon Tom's departure...and that Woltz wakes up to find the head the very next morning!

In reality (fictional reality that is), a couple of days probably go by while Tom returns home, informs the Don of Woltz's refusal to cooperate, lets him know about the prized horse...and THEN Don Corleone sends somebody back to Hollywood with orders to make Mr. Woltz an offer he can't refuse.

Apple

I'm going to offer a different possibility that Tom was responsible for devising the killing of the prostitute and setting up Geary. And this is the reason for the hypothesis: Michael gave Hagen complete control while Michael went to meet with Roth and later Pentangelli.

One of the undercurrents in GFII is the deteriorating relationship between Tom & Michael. It is really discussed in detail in the alternate GFII script . But before the meeting b/w Michael & Geary in the alternate version, Hagen discussed how to set up Geary:

HAGEN: "I've cleared it through the Senator's chief aide, a man named Turnbull. Turnbull's a heavy gambler, and into us for over a hundred grand, so I figure his information is reliable."

"The Senator can be set up; but he thinks of himself as a clean politician. So it's got to be on terms he can live with: campaign contribution, donation to a charitable cause that he controls, things like that. If he gets even
the inkling that you think you're buying him, he'll freeze up. Nevada's a funny state, they like things both ways here... All right. Turnbull says the Senator will be here at two-thirty, and he's been primed. He knows you'll want to meet with him alone, and he knows it's about the Tropicana's license. At any rate, he expects to be introduced around to some of the influential people here today, and generally treated as an ordinary guest. Just go light on him, Mikey, sometimes the biggest crooks don't like to think of themselves as crooks..."

Michael glances at Hagen, as though that last remark was
unnecessary.

HAGEN: "I'm sorry; of course, you know that."


Then, in the release version, we see the repurcussions of Hagen's misinformation:

MICHAEL: Turnbull is a good man.

GEARY: Let's forget the bullshit, I don't want to stay here any longer than I have to. You can have the license
for $250,000 in cash, plus a monthly fee equal to five percent of the gross...

Michael is taken aback; he looks at Hagen.

GEARY: ...of all three Corleone hotels.

Hagen is frustrated; all his information was wrong.


I think this exchange between Geary & Michael, when amplified by the alternate scene, is the groundwork for the reasons why Tom directed that Geary be set up with the prostitute. Tom was losing his stature within the Family and was certainly losing Michael's trust (if Hagen had not lost it already). As we see time and again in GFII, Michael was so paranoid that he really trusted no one. His little speech to Hagen after the shooting "You're the only I can completely trust..." was just to massage Hagen's ego.

So Hagen devised a way to get back at Geary and, hopefully in the process, reacquire some of Michael's trust and respect. Upon Michael's return from Cuba, Hagen could have told Michael: "Look, we don't have to worry about Geary any more. Here's what I did."

I can see this happening much in the same vein as Rocco volunteering for the suicide mission in killing Roth. There have been discussion on these boards that Rocco felt threatened by Neri's rise in power and Rocco volunteered to whack Roth as a means to win back Michael's favor.

The "hit" on Geary's prostitute took time to arrange just like any hit would take such time. Remember, Geary said that "we had done this before", so obviously there was the opportunity for the Corleones to know about the Senator's habits not to mention that conveniently he apparently frequented one of Fredo's brothel's where he may have been "comped". Because of the time involved, it is probable that Michael had discussed options with Tom before and after the Geary meeting. No, I can't believe that Tom would have attempted to arrange the blackmail of a US Senator involving murder on his own regardless of his temporary "Don" status.

I don't know about that. While of course not capable of actually committing murder with his own hands, surely as a member of the Corleone Family for virtually all his life, Tom would have no trouble acting upon such an opportunity. I always note the way he coldly and callously explains to Geary that the girl had no family and that it would be like she 'never existed'. And the delightfully evil gesture of wiping his hands as if to say, 'That's that...!'

While of course there may have been a discussion with Michael on a way of getting Geary in their pocket...I think that once he was named Don, Tom could certainly have ordered the girl's murder to get to the Senator.

After all, she was 'small potatoes'.

Apple

Don't worry. I took your post the way you intended it, TB. My post was more directed towards whomever it was that posted no one ordered a hit against a horse.

It was me. I was just trying to point out some parallel story lines from both stories. All these questions (to which there will never be concrete answers) gives one pause to think what might have happened. Just speculation which leads to interesting and stimulating conversation.

Not be beat a dead horse but I noticed something interesting while reading the GF film reviews posted by Christina in another thread. After Johnny cries and whines to Vito in his study, Vito tells him to relax, he'll have the part in a month, but Johnny retorts that they start shooting on the movie in a week. That doesn't leave Vito a lot of time to "reason with this Mr. Woltz." From what Turnbull quoted from the novel, I believe that is was Vito's idea to get to Woltz through Khartoum. Like Apple states, the movie makes it seem like the head winds up in bed the very next morning after Tom leaves, but that might not necessarily be the case.

That being said, with only a couple days to work with, would it be logical for Tom to fly out to California, fly back to New York, make plans with Vito, then have someone from the family fly back out to California? The true answer, which Apple will surely point out, is that it is a movie that doesn't have to make sense so anything's possible. Normally, I'd agree with her, but for some reason, I'm feeling speculative this morning. If chopping off Khartoum's head was in fact Vito's idea, could he just have had someone out in California do the deed, rather than a Corleone soldier? Wasn't the Molinari family that guranteed Fredo's safety in Vegas stationed in California? If Vito trusted them enough to protect his son, I'm sure he trusted them enough to chop off the head of a horse.