Alan "Baldie" Longo :
"Don't let anyone tell you we're dead, we're not. Because Vito [Genovese] ain't here no more, Vincent [Gigante] is."



FBI agent John Pritchard :
'He was probably the most clever organized crime figure I'd ever seen.'
'Without a doubt, he was the smartest, most scheming mafia figure to come down the pike in my time"

For me the most interesting Mafia figure is Salvie Testa. Millionaire capo by age 27, true south Philly live for the day wiseguy. He even played tennis and killed 15 guys in the riccobene war.

But it was Gigante's leadership that kept the family strong. All you have to do is look at the other families following the Commission case, who took over, and the results - including the infighting, defections, etc. We never saw that in the Genovese family. One reason being, as law enforcement said, was Chin's ability to pick very loyal captains, who in turn were able to enforce strict discipline throughout the rest of the family.

In other families we saw people in the administrations and captains flip. Not until Felix Tranghese up in Springfield did we see that in the Genovese family, despite the fact many top Genovese guys being indicted. The Genovese family has also been the most successful at maintaining their status in terms of their rackets. This starts from the top down.

You're right that the Genovese family has always benefited from more competent leadership in general. But another reason why Gigante gets the credit he does is the period in which he was boss - from the early 80's until his death in 2005. By far the hardest time to be a boss. Much more difficult than the time periods of earlier leaders.

Just by virtue of leading the family in secret, while even the FBI thought that Tony Salerno was the boss, makes Gigante as crafty as anyone in my eyes.

The authorities say that the Genovese family has retained most of its power mainly because of the ruthless discipline and secrecy imposed by Vincent (Chin) Gigante, whom Federal and state prosecutors have identified in indictments as the group's boss since 1980. Under Mr. Gigante's rule the Genovese clan has supplanted the Gambino family as the wealthiest and most powerful crime faction in New York and New Jersey, Federal and state officials say. "Nobody will cross Chin Gigante," Mr. North said of Mr. Gigante's role in the family.

Investigators grudgingly credit Mr. Gigante with exceptional skill in selecting loyal capos who operate crews and funnel illegal profits to him. Unlike the other families in the region, the Genovese group has had no high-level traitors and its hierarchy seems to be intact.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/29/nyregi...ed=3&src=pm

I know wikipedia isnt always reliable but it had this to say about the Chin

In one instance during the wake of a Genovese member, Gigante pulled aside Victor Amuso, the acting boss of the Lucchese crime family, to discuss the Lucchese's families encroachment on his families "Windows Racket". Gigante told him he'd be "lucky to leave this wake alive" and the Lucchese family subsequently gave in to Gigante's demand to back off.

I can believe it - the Chin was a bad ass

IKR? They guy definitely had some mental problems on top of his little "cover" but the guy new how to get what he wanted.

i really don't believe he had any mental problems. maybe like tony soprano had mental problems. but i think if 10 people got a pshych eval then 9 outta 10 would be classified as having some kind of mental problem. the chin played the part to well to be crazy and run the strongest crime family in the us.

That account came from the 1995 New York Magazine article. It said Amuso left the wake "trembling." It certainly seems Vic and Gas viewed Chin the same way Gotti did.

What's interesting is the Luccheses and their control of Iron Workers Local 580 was a key part of the window replacement racket. The Genovese and the Luccheses, as well as the Gambinos and the Colombos later on, all were involved; though it was mainly a Genovese racket from the beginning. But the Lucchese must have not been following some agreement to make Chin chew out Amuso at that wake.

Wasn't one of the reasons Castellano was killed because he was giving the Genovese control of what were historically Gambino rackets, and he killed one of his own capos from Connecuit because he was standing in the way of the Genovese there? I never knew who the capo was until today, it was Frank Piccolo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Piccolo

The Luchese killed an associate of theirs John "Sonny" Morrissey a rep for Local 580 because they thought he could eventually become a rat. They wouldn't kill Pete Savino though, even when they knew he was a rat because the Chin wouldn't OK it. That was probably one of the Chins biggest mistakes, not having Savino killed when he had the chance.

Another reason this guy might not be all he's cracked up to be.Casso straight up told him he knew Savino was a rat from his "crystal ball" and the Genovese questioned him(Savino).Naturally Savino denied it and in his arrogance the Chin didn't clip.Of course who would be so smart as to deceive the big bad Genovese family

One thing about the Genoveses is that they seem to take themselves too seriously.They have some sort of superiority complex and they buy into their own myth as much as John Gotti ever did,though in a different way:

Gigante lived his whole life in his mothers house and doing his crazy act with the thought of how smart and cunning he was,he probably never got to enjoy the fruits of his labor.Say what you will about the Gottis or Cassos or Scarfos but before they ended up in the can for life they probably lived a good life.Nice cars,big houses,women,plenty of money to spend.Meanwhile the Chin ended up the same,in jail,but he lived his life running around the village in a bathrobe and slippers

Another area where I thought they overdid it is this "not being flashy" thing,"the worst dressed mobsters" or how they "drive Buicks not Cadillacs".This gets tossed around so often it's become a generic blanket therm."Oh look how smart they are they're not flashy like the other gangsters".Does someone really think in this day in age that matters?Is the government really fooled so easily?The FEDS are going to come after mobsters no matter what,doesn't matter if they drive a Lamborghini or a Fiat.
The FEDS didn't go after Gotti because he dressed well or drove a Mercedes,it's because he did those things in front of the cameras and he beat their cases.I'm sure you can find some middle ground between dressing like a bum and parading like Gotti on national TV.

Take for instance Barney Bellomo showing up at that wedding in jeans and a t-shirt.Another example of the generic "oh he's so smart he doesn't dress flashy and attract attention".Well how the fuck does that even work?In a room full of guys dressed in suits isn't the guy in jeans going to attract MORE attention than usual?

I swear these guys must be warped

Best way to attract attention is through flashy things. Say what you want about The Chin, but his bathrobe act worked and he stayed on the street longer than any of these other clowns. The guys who truly ran the show were low key men. They never kept anything in their name, didn't drive fancy cars and almost always dressed modestly.

Seems like you willfully ignore Chin's over all record as a boss, while singling out his mistake with Savino, simply to make your point. Which holds no water by the way.



Generally speaking, they take "the life" seriously. They run their organization it was meant to be run. By all accounts, the Genovese family IS superior. Always has been. There's really no "myth" there.



Law enforcement has commented before how Chin wasn't interested in any of that stuff. Just the "pure power" he had. How long did Gotti, Casso, or Scarfo last on the street? Furthermore, what was the effect of their leadership on their families?



Well, let's see here. Judging by the current status of the family, it's very low number of rats, it's ability to maintain it's rackets - both legal and illegal - they must be doing something right.

Seriously, I think you're just trying to go against the grain here. You can't be this clueless, can you?

Because this mistake was the one that brought down the house.Had Gigante listened to the advice of Casso,who you seem to deem as an inferior,the windows case fiasco probably would have been avoided.

Say what you will about Casso,Gotti,Persico,Massino etc. but their actions only fucked up their own families.Chin's unwillingness to kill Savino fucked up 4 families.

And why doesn't it hold any water?


Please don't twist my words.By myth I meant their mystique,their image.The same way Gotti lived off the attention his daper suits and cars brought him,the same way the Genovese guys are cultivating their Keyser Soze image.
And I never said the Genovese family was overrated.I said the Chin was overrated.Replace him with any of his powerful contemporaries and you would have the same result.

Well law enforcement can't really read his mind can they?They can only speculate.If Chin wasn't interested in that stuff then why did he become a gangster?
But that doesn't even matter.If he didn't want any of that,its his business.But that doesn't make him superior to someone who did want it.
Around 30 years.Nothing to scoff at,especially if you're not spending those years pretending you're insane.

You got me there.But should that be the only criteria?


They are indeed doing something right.But I don't think the fact that the drove Buicks and not Cadillacs thwarted the FBI's plans or caused them to say "lets leave these guys alone,the Colombos drive Escalades,lets go after them".


So because I disagree and don't buy into Gigante being some all-powerful,infallible criminal mastermind I'm 'going against the grain' and am 'clueless'?Since we're throwing shots here I could accuse you of being a fanboy,but it's beneath me.
Guys like Tony Accardo or Trafficante jr. achieved everything he did without spending years pretending to be insane,yet they don't have this Leonardo DaVinci of crime aura attached to them.

I'd have to say, Antonino (Anthony) Accardo, a/k/a "the Big Tuna"/"Joe Batters"! He never spent a night in jail, never did any time in the pen, NOTHING. Managed to run the Outfit for close to 50 years, while everyone, including the "G", didn't have a clue! Others stood in as boss while "JB" was laying low
staying under the radar. His biggest/boldest move, that the public could and would scrutinize, was his purchase of a mansion in a nearby Chicago Suburb, he ended up going through 3 before his death by natural causes of congenital heart failure at a hospital not far from where he grew up as a child.
I understand that Chicago is no New York and things regarding organized crime are plenty different.

Doubtful. Savino was certainly a key to the investigation but, even without him, the feds likely would have cracked it some other way considering the 13 mob companies, unions, and millions of dollars involved.



Well, this is a good example.

Due to his high profile ways, Gotti brought down law enforcement and media attention on the mob not seen since Al Capone. His leadership style led to hours of FBI footage of every Gambino captain meeting at the Ravenite every week as well as hours of tape of him and the rest of the family administration discussing mob business; which in turn led to Gravano flipping. Gravano saw all the evidence against him and figured he had little chance of beating the case. And hearing Gotti badmouth him behind his back certainly didn't help. Gravano's testified not only against the Gambinos but also against numerous people in the other families. He fleshed out the hierarchies of all the families for the FBI, as well as gave them a ton of info on the mob and the construction industry.

Casso? His leadership style led to the defection of several top Lucchese guys like Al D'Arco, Peter Chiodo, etc. And like Gravano, they gave up a ton of info on all the families, the mob's involvement in numerous unions, the construction industry, etc.

Massino? It's still early but we haven't seen a domino effect of turncoats in any family in so short of time than his over the past decade.

Chin certainly screwed up by letting Savino get to close but the damage mostly did not go beyond the windows case and those involved. I believe like 9 or 10 guys were indicted. It wasn't a case of "fucking up" four families.



I'd be very surprised if guys like Dom Cirillo, Matty Ianniello, Barney Bellomo, Larry Dentico, etc. know who Keyser Soze is. They're not trying to "cultivate" anything. They're trying to present as little of a profile as possible. Gotti loved to make headlines. The Genovese guys try to stay out of the news as much as possible. Talk about apples and oranges.



You've already been given examples of why people credit Gigante with keeping the Genovese family strong. Yes, it included others in the family, but as I said it starts from the top down. With Chin choosing to stay behind the scenes and avoid the Commission case, him picking the right captains (not one of which flipped), the extreme secrecy and attempts to avoid surveillance, etc.



For the record, Chin did have both a wife and a girlfriend. And he spent time back and forth between them in Manhattan and New Jersey. But who says you have to screw a ton of women to be a gangster? Where is it written you have to go nightclub hopping with an entourage to be a gangster?

After Chin had been convicted and was in prison there is an account of a conversation he had with some other inmates. One of them knew an old friend of Chin's (named Gaspar) who had moved to Vegas years before. The other inmate asked Chin why he hadn't done the same. Chin replied that he "had Vegas" right in New York. For him, running the top family in the nation was enough. And his influence extended to other places, like Boston, Philadelphia, etc.



It does if certain behavior brings attention from law enforcement and the media. Gotti, for instance, openly flaunted himself for the media, which was basically a case of thumbing his nose at law enforcement. That only made the feds that much more determined to get him. Chin's unique style of playing crazy certainly brought it's own attention but not to his detriment. He kept him on the street for years where he would have probably been put away long before without it.



I'm talking about their time as boss on the street.

Gotti? About 5 years. From 1986 to his last indictment in 1990. And he was in jail for a good chunk of the time in between with his other cases.

Casso? About 7 years. From late 1986 (towards the end of the Commission trial) to 1993. And 2 of those were spent on the run.

Scarfo? About 6 years. From 1981 to 1987. And like Gotti, he had been in jail during that time on other cases.

As boss on the street, Chin lasted about 16 years. From 1981 to 1997.



If we're talking about their record as a mob boss, it's most of it.



Them driving less flashy cars and wearing less flashy clothes is just an example of the over all low key, secretive style of the family. Obviously it's not the only thing. You could include other things like Tino Fiumara riding to meetings curled up in the back seat or trunk of a car. Or Dom Cirillo having his driver go the wrong way on a freeway ramp to avoid tails. Or them making guys go through the initiation ceremony in their underwear and a robe.

But more important examples would be how they conduct their business, which has enabled them to maintain the most presence in the labor unions and legitimate industries in New York. Or how they enforce discipline. Still very few rats to this day. And until the recent Al Bruno case up in Springfield, their murders were pretty clean - Coppola, Ricci, Izzi, etc.



There is nothing which you can accuse me of being a fanboy. Everything I've said are based on the facts at hand. Law enforcement officials, former gangsters, and journalists have said the same thing. Are they fanboys?



Nobody is saying Chin was the only great boss in the history of the mob. Or even the greatest. But all things considered - the time frame in which he was boss, his few mistakes, the effects of his leadership on his family, the stated opinions of experts on him, etc. - nobody can say he is overrated.

The Chin wasn't the perfect boss, but he was very successful. I think it's uncalled for to judge his mafia career by how many girls he banged, how much jewelry he had, the kind of car he drove, etc. Not all guys are into that, especially older guys, for them sitting around playing cards and shooting the shit with their goombahs is the best thing in the world to do. The Chin had his two wives, his nine kids, his brothers, and friends who were loyal to him. He didn't have a superficial life for the most part.

The Chin was a great boss in a time period when it wasnt wonderful to be a boss anymore.
Even as a Capo, the Chin had a formidable crew and was considered a heavy hitter

Reading these interesting facts make me alsmost admire these guys. This would really be frustrating as fuck for the feds.

And Vincent Gigante was 100% Cosa Nostra. There were likely more bright ones than him, but I can't name one who would be even close to as determined as he was. He definitely deserves credit for it.

Tommy Gambino, man couldn't of hurt a fly. Looked like a businessman.

Strangest pairing was Tommy Gambino and John Gotti, who had dinner together on a few occasions. One guy was very hot-headed and the other guy was level-headed as can be.

Um Im sure Tommy Gambino and Tommy Gambino had dinner more than a few occasions. Tommy Gambino was his highest earning captain with the garmet district. tommy also knew Gotti SR whacked big paul and still broke bread with him, now thats whats interesting

tommy gambino fell in line just as everyone else did with gotti. gotti was a great leader in alot of ways. his stupidity and arrogance overshadowed his feats and shined on his faults!

i want to say tony accardo and the current chicago outfit... even the feds dont know who is boss its pure speculation by everyone and the outfit is the most intriguing family in my eyes because they are so secretive and nobody except them really know who the boss or acting boss is and how many strong they really are.... but a few come to mind in intriguing one is al tornebene the supposed former consierge of the outfit another is hy larner ... look him up

Yeah Gotti knew how to run his organization to a certain extent (excluding his media fixation) and not leaning on Tommy Gambino, like he did some other guys, was a smart move given how good an earner he was. I think Tommy was a college graduate, rare considering alot of these guys don't get through high school.

yes he was a college grad. Manhattan college grad 1962.

I have a whole laundry list of guys that are pretty intriguing to me.

Obviously Chin Gigante. I think that he was the most impressive boss of his generation, only rivaled maybe by Joe Massino until Big Joey flipped.

I'm also interested by Benny Squint Lombardo. He ran the Genovese family between Don Vittono and the Chin, and I'm having real trouble finding any info about the guy. All I know is, he kept the ranks in good order, laid extremely low (I'm talking lower even than Chin), and retired when he felt like retiring. As I write this, I'm starting to realize that he might be one of the most underrated gangsters out there, solely because his reign was sandwiched between the far more famous Genovese and Gigante.

I think Paul Ricca is pretty cool; he was Accardo's mentor and the only person that Joe Batters ever really bowed to.

Then there are Gagliano and Vincent Mangano. For founding members of the Commission, there's really not a whole lot of info out there about them. I'm curious as to how they managed to get into the Commission considering that they were from the Mustache Pete generation that was overthrown by the Young Turks in 1931.

Finally, there's Joe Profaci. I have zero information on his dealings in the US between his arrival in the early 1920s and his establishing his own borgata in the late 1920s. How did he rise so quickly?

Hi, New to the site.. My favorite is Christopher "The Tick" Furnari the Consigliere of Lucchese. I just wish there was more on him to read he is still alive and would be great to interview.

Where would you guys put the new Boss, Domenico Cefalu?
Will he be succesful like the Chin? Massino? or perhaps more like Ligambi? Or wasnt he a good choice after all?

If you wanted to interview a rapist, yeah.