I think poor Frankie Five Angels should have got a "pass" as he was DECEIVED into thinking The Corleone Family was behind his being whacked.

Of course, there were no witnesses to collaborate with Frank Pantanglle.

The poor old guy just wanted to live out his life with his apparently nice and caring wife, but fate stepped in and gave Frank a harsh judgement for his past dastardly deeds (for which I'm sure there were many).

we're made to care about Frank, yet the man was a murderer. However, they only killed their own kind, right? So, what? I don't know. I say, "poor Frankie Five Angels." He never did anything to me.

Frankie was an exceptionally sympatico character--a small-timer caught between two titans, Michael and Roth. And he was a victim in more ways than one. Michael roughly threw aside Frankie's loyalty to him by favoring the Rosatos and Roth, because he was greedy for Roth's Havana deal. And, Michael cruelly manipulated Frankie into meeting with the Rosatos--in effect, putting Frankie's head in the lion's mouth--so he could either get rid of a vexing problem (if frankie settled with them); or, if killed, further proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe attack.

BUT:
Frankie broke omerta by agreeing to testify against Michael. He couldn't be given a pass. The nominal reason is that Michael had to make an example--no one can betray him and live. And, although Frankie's credibility as a witness against Michael was shattered by his renunciation of his affidavit, the Feds weren't going to keep him on the government's tit forever. They'd keep hammering him for more and more information about Michael. Sonner or later, they'd get something that they could act on without having to use Frankie as a witness.

BTW: It was too bad Paramount couldn't get Richard Castellano for II. But Michael V. Gazzo was a worthy substitute. IMO, he made II.

I agree with TB to a great degree; but there is one more thing: the betrayal of omerta meant that Frankie Five-Angles was (from that point onwards) nothing in the mob world. He made enemies in the business, but was no longer a Don or protected. he would've died by any number of hands if he was on the outside or in a regular jail.

The Feds wouldn't have put him under such protection forever, now that he ruined their case for them he is no longer a "witness", Michael could've waited and killed him one way or the other when transferred to a regular jail.

BUT, If you recall Tom's visit to him, and the talk about Roman customs, it was to tell him that his family will be taken care of -something Michael didn't really need to do for a traitor, right?

Frankie committed a cardinal sin; he talked, for that he had to pay, but if he killed himself, his family will be taken care of - that's the way Michael shows that he "sympathizes" with him (as much a mafia boss can sympathize).... the other thing is sending a high-ranking member of the family to talk to him (Tom).... reminiscing on the old days, no threats, no "how could you?" .... but very friendly-like, that means RESPECT.

Finally, suicide does not send a message regarding Michael's retribution towards traitors, it does not "Make an Example"..... that's what a brutal bloody death does....

Frankie was a loyal mobster and wanted to help Mike get rid of Roth. its obvious Michael got too greedy and let that power that he was given get to his head. He reminds me of Paul castellano because despite a few guys like Neri and Tom he mostly "ate alone" when it came to other mobsters in his family. Vito was more respected. Anyway getting back to Frankie I guess there was no other option but for him to kill himself. Even though he was royally screwed over he couldn't be a force in the mob anymore. The only reason he broke omerta was because he thought he was whacked by Mike and honestly I dont put it past Mike to do it even though he knew Frank was loyal just to end a war with the Rosatos

This is the world of organized crime.

You do not get a "pass" for having been deceived. You are not judged on having been deceived, you are judged on your behavior. Frankie was about to testify against his Don, which if he had gone through with it would've sent Michael to prison. Once coerced out of that, he was of no use to anyone. Not the Feds, not the Corleone Family. Wife & daughter don't count...but they at least get taken care of.

Yes, Frankie was deceived. As a result, he turned traitor. He deserved sympathy...but he didNOT deserve a "pass".

haha - AppleOnYa is running for the next available seat of "Don."

But I getcha. It's a hard world in Organized Crime, and there are protocols that exist there that are ridiculously cruel to people like "us."

Does Frankie, technically, break omerta? He did recant his testimony.

If he did break omerta, why did Tom tell Vincenzo that the Pentangeli family's honor was intact?

Yes, he did break the omertà because he had already given crucial information to the federal agents before the hearing. You don't break the omertà only if you testify before a committee.

He thought Michael was behind his potential assassination, so he figured, "yeah sure! Michael Corleone did this!, Michael Corlone did that!"

Shoot, I'd sing like a canary if I was in his shoes.

perhaps the way the scene was shot is what confused me.

It looks like an ACTUAL hit that is thwarted ONLY because a beat cop happens to walk in at the wrong time.


"Mike Corleone says hello" only makes sense if the plan was NOT to kill him.

Nah, gangster assassins always say stuff like that, for dramatic effect. Remember when The Chin tried to assassinate Costello? Before he fired his pistola, he called out, "This is for you, Frank!" That warning saved Frank Costello's life because Frank turned around and the shot fired didn't kill him.

So there you go.

Danny Aiello said he ad-libbed "Michael Corleone says hello." If so, why didn't FFC cut it out?
I've often speculated that the remark was meant for Richie the bartender. Richie obviously was a civilian ("No, Carmine, not here!"). If the cops got involved, Richie would never rat out the Rosatos. So Tony Rosato fed him a line to give to the cops: "I dunno who these guys were, but one of them said, 'Michael Corleone says hello.' " That'd point the finger at Michael. And, when the newspapers got it, his "legitimate" image would be damaged further.

Well TB, we've never concluded whether or not they meant to murder Frankie or not. That's key. If murder was the intent, then the line (ab-libbed or not) makes no sense. But if it was meant to turn Frankie against Michael, then it makes every bit of sense. I'll have to watch that scene again to see just pysically how it was perfromed before I can conclude nayhting.

I think it's a little far reached if the Rosato brothers and the cops were all involved in the set-up, creating a very dangerous situation on the street with innocent bystanders.

Good point about the line being said for the bartender.

I think that in that scenario..it was done so that the underworld would think that Mike had him taken out.

Same code that would have kept Richie from fingering the hitmen would keep him from mentioning Corleone's name to the cops.

Roth wanted east coast underworld to think that Mike had it done.

The cop coming into the bar was not intended - you can tell that simply by Aiello's reaction.

Although, it doesn't make sense for Aiello (Rosato) to say "Michael Corleone says hello" if the hit wasn't sanchioned by Michael Corleone or the Corleone Family.

I think it were two separate situations. Both the Rosato brothers and Roth wanted others to believe that Michael ordered the death of Pentangeli.

The difference is that Roth didn't want Pentangeli to die, which is what the Rosato's intented.

That's why Roth probably informed the cops about what was going to happen, in the hope his plan would turn out like he intented, which it did.

I think at least the cop who walked in was on Roth's payroll.

The Rosato's were used by Roth. He enigneered the whole situation.

I don't know about that. Frankie was about a second or two from being killed when the cop walked in.

Roth had other things planned to deal with Michael. It seems far-fetched to think he had such an elaborate plan - complete with a cop's complicity and the double-cross of his New York allies - to secure what amounted to a Plan C (after the Reno hit and the Cuba assassination) of getting rid of Michael.

If that was his plan, why not offer Frankie a deal or make him think Michael betrayed him in another way? Roth already knew that Frankie was angry with Michael.

I think Frankie would never make a deal with Roth. He may very well have been angry on Michael, but he hated and distrusted Roth too much.

Besides, Frankie was an oldtimer who till then had always been loyal to the Corleone's.

So if this whole situation wasn't a set-up then it was just a spectacular coincidence which almost turned out perfectly for Roth....

Unless the "Michael Corleone says hello" was intended for the bartender?

****
I found it inappropriate that Michael expressed (what seemed to me) real anger at Pentangeli ("where my wife sleeps, where my children come to play with their toys. My home!") when he wasn't really angry at him at all.

I don't think that Michael thought that Frankie was behind the attack but he had to be sure and what better way to gauge that than to see how Frankie reacted to a surprise visit and Michael's display of real anger?

Michael had been frightened and angered and hadn't really had a chance to vent. Frankie was that chance.

As we know the "Michael Corleone says hello" was an adlib which was left in. It works because it not only is the sort of cold one liner which a movie bad guy would say while he's killing someone but it also adds to the audience's (and Frankie's) confusion about who's pulling the strings.

I think that Roth intended for Frankie to die that day. That he didn't and Roth was able to adapt was just testimony (pun intended) to how slick and devious Roth was. You don't get to be an old mobster without being able to think quickly in tough situations.

Sonny, I'd like to go over this one more time:

Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million, and have him assassinated in the small hours of January 1, 1959. Why would he try to engineer an incredibly dangerous, split-second-timed rescue of Frankie? So that Frankie would hate Michael and testify against him at a Senate hearing weeks or months away, by which time, according to Roth's Havana timetable, Michael would be long dead?

And if Roth did intend for Frankie to survive, how would he engineer it? Call his man in the precinct and say, "Listen, Shultz, I want you to send a patrolman to Richie's Bar--but make sure he gets there at 3:43 and 22 seconds--not 3:43 and ll seconds, or 3:43 and 28 seconds--3:43 and 22 seconds!. Got it? Let's coordinate watches..."

Or, suppose Roth was lurking outside in a phone booth. He'd have to call the local police precinct and say, "Hello, 87th Precinct? There's a ruckus going on in Richie's Bar. You better send someone--but don't send him until 3:43 and 22 seconds..."

It was pretty obvious that the cop who happened on the scene wasn't clued in on it. And, as we saw, he got shot in the melee afterward.

Good point. I haven't thought about it that way, so I think you're right.

But still, the cop does enter the bar a little suspicious...

And where did all the cops suddenly came from anyway?

And what about this remark Tom made to Michael (taken from the transcript):

"ROTH. He engineered it MICHAEL. Frankie went to make a deal with the Rosato Brothers -- and they tried to kill him. Our people with the New York detectives said he was half dead, scared stiff, and calling out loud that you'd turned on him. They'd already had him on possession, bookmaking, murder 1, and a lot more."

Sure he was suspicious. He thought Richie's bar should have been closed, and when he came in, he asked if he was open or close.


Directorial licens--FFC called them .


That remark was in the context that Roth worked to keep Frankie's survival secret--not that he engineered Frankie's survival per se. Roth was nothing if not resilient. As we learned from Fredo in the very next scene, the Senate lawyer, Questadt, belonged to Roth. Frankie wanted Roth dead. After Roth learned that Frankie survived, he had his man, Questadt, work with the NYC police and the FBI to keep his surival secret, so that Michael could be tricked into thinking that Cicci was the highest-ranking person to testify against him--and Cicci said he never got a direct order from Michael.

Also, TB:

MICHAEL: "Alive -- PENTANGELI is alive. How'd they get their hands on him?
TOM."