i understand the whole kicing up concept from made guy to capo to underboss and boss. My ? is i read alot of conflicting reports on how much a soldier has 2 kick up to his capo. Is is a percentage of his earnings or a fixed amount every week. ??

It can be either. It varies from family to family and crew to crew depending on the business and more importantly exactly how much knowledge the boss has of the underling's doings.

Per the Pistone book, everybody lies about what they make and as long as the superior is getting a reasonable amount -i.e enough to make his own payments upwards he may not care too much. If things take a turn for the worse or if someone is caught lying there could be a big problem.

Joseph Profaci made all the made men in his family to pay a tax of 200 dollars if i remember correctly. So like LILO says it depends on the family.

You'd think its a bit to do with the individual soldiers recognised abilty to earn as well...?

Example: Lets say an older wiseguy, a soldier made a decade or two ago, has quietly built up a book or two under his Capo on his own designated patch, & he knows he can comfortably kick 5K a week, not including the Xmas (& other) bonus(es), so he does, week in & week out, making (probably a few K more then he let on) for himself as well.

On the other hand, some young wiseguy, newly made, born into the Family through his relatives & grown up with the the sons of the other mobsters, he's fresh outta college & completely sure in what he wants to do,(which is work for the Family), so he launches into some elaborate internet scheme devised to cream millions of unwitting netizens through dodgy porn sites, online betting or other various frauds. After months & months of set up after the initial investment, just when the Capo's starting get antsy, the young guy comes through with a clean million dollars kick up, more then making up the initial invest. & the time it took. The young wiseguy starts of on his next scheme, & in some weeks to months may come through with more.
(Ridiculously enough, ive basically mirrored the plot of that equally ridiculous move "This Thing Of Ours" without realising)

In another example, maybe a guy in th local consruction union is a friend of the family, maybe made himself. He organises a no-show job for the Capo, so he is now seen to be earning a regular wage from so-&-so LTD. Is that not that guys kick up, in a sense?

I just think it'd be relative. You wouldnt expect millions of a highjacker, but you'd expect more then a few thousand from your guy rigging bids for public works.

Being a good earner also means that they can squeeze you more and more, so i think thats one of the reasons that made men dont kick up the percentage they have to.

But like you said, it depends on the soldiers and capos. There was some sense of respect i think, like older capos didnt have to kick up what they used to when still a young soldier.

BTW, it was a nice movie. Not top, but okey:)

Oh absolutely. It's all about knowledge and greed. If you're a good earner, you will be "asked" to contribute more. It's a bit of pain but then again your bosses have another reason to want to keep you around. If you're a less than adept moneymaker you will contribute less but if your bosses ever need to make an example of someone (and not lose very much money in the process) your name will likely be high on the list.

I don't know the amounts off the top of my head but in both Philadelphia and NY/NJ, capos Harry Riccobene and Anthony Accetturo had what they considered reasonable long standing tribute amounts under their respective leadership. When the leadership changed and greedier or less trusting bosses took over the amount of tribute required went dramatically upwards and strife arose.

Some bosses/captains are greedier than others; some are smarter than others. Nobody ever volunteers everything they do-particularly if they are insanely criminally entrepreneurial people like Michael Franzese. Like all such mob stories who knows how true it is but in Franzese's book Quitting the Mob he tells of getting in serious trouble with his bosses when turncoat Iorizzo stated that the Franzese operation was much much bigger than the bosses had been given to believe. The bosses supposedly tried to use Franzese's father's words against Michael in order to trip him up.

Most of the books I've read state that everyone steals; they are after all criminals. In the book Double Cross, mob chieftain Giancana is quoted (paraphrase) as saying "Give me a man who steals a little and I'll make a million". You can get away with fudging numbers here or there as long as you are still kicking lots of money upstairs. But if your boss just doesn't like you or you are poor mouthing him while driving around in a new BMW....

Nino Gaggi apparently always suspected that Roy DeMeo was making more than he was letting on (he was).
Everyone in the mob lie's about how much their really making.

I dont know what the rules are for a Capo wether he has to kick up a set amount each week/month to the Underboss who takes his share before passing it to the boss?

The trouble is with giving a set amount (for a soldier) lets say he muscles in on a thriving nightclub in the middle of Manhattan and he's pocketing $5000 a week (just for a figure).
He gives $2500 of that to his capo who then expects $2500 each week.
Suddenly the nightclubs customers find a better place to party the night away - takings start to tumble, and the soldier is only getting $3000.
The soldier has to chose wether to give the capo $2500 and only pocket $500 himself or threaten the club and demand the $5000 he initially got but if he does that it wont belong before the club goes out of buisness and then his meal ticket will be gone!

I think some captains were more understandable than others

In his second book the Way of the Wiseguy (?not sure if that's the exact title) Pistone talks about just this problem. Each captain or boss sets his own rules and they usually aren't that sympathetic to underlings' problems.
As Pistone tells it this runs downhill and so then the captains will tighten the screws on the soldiers who do the same thing to the associates.

In general this means that the guy on the street-the low level soldier or associate who may not have a crew of his own to shake down is always looking for new scams, new businesses, new ways to get out of spending his own money.

I think some bosses/capos use a set dollar amt /per week just to keep the accounting simple and guarantee they're getting what they think is a significant taste. In the example you give I think that soldier would be wise to give his captain the $2500 no matter what and then find other ways to make up the loss.

i guess they both have there pro"s and cons for both parties. If a member must kick up a set amount it may motivate him more 2 earn. On the other hand if a guy has 2 kick up a % and is a bigger earner then sky is the limit and both the member and family heirarchy will b happy.

Here's some stuff about the lower echelons, citizen to made man. The "territory" system that was established way over in Sicily, it's still active today. Sicilian example: A family collects weekly money throughout most of Naples. That's their territory, and if you don't respect it, make collections on your own. You better watch your back, Sicilians tend to be extra violent.

In Cosa Nostra, the system of territories is to this day still respected. For instance, the Meat Packing District is Gambino territory. If I start making collections from a bookie in their territory, I get a beating and a death threat.

From all the mobsters I've read about, seems the majority kick up as much as they can, not a set amount. In some cases, their weekly envelopes allow them to leave. Roy Demeo, for instance, was in pornography, which Big Paul frowned upon, as well as drug dealing, which supposedly is punishable by death. Because of the millions he kicked up, his bosses turned a blind eye to his shameful business dealings. That's how it works with the bosses, if you can't kick enough to make up for the risk you pose, you pay with your life. To quote Ralph Cifaretto, "three million a year from construction...".

even though this is fiction i remember in the sopranos when christopher becomes a made man paulie tells him he must kick up a percentage of his earinings with a set minimum each wk. This would b a very sensible way of doing things. This was a guy who is a top earner must kick in more than the minimum to the family but everyone must carry there own weight by kicking up that set minimum

but we have to remember that Sopranos was the closest thing we get on the mafia, almost accurate. Not counting the many killings, but the rest was pretty much accurate.

Speaking of which. What's the difference between vigorish and points? I understand vig perfectly, although I can't recall the usual rates. But the concept of points has always been unclear to me.

vig is only with loansharking, and points are used when splitting a job or something. Who gets what points.

Huh? ???

Our friend, plawrence, explained it well some years ago. Check the link to his message:

VIGORISH - click here

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Once again, plawrence explains it well:

POINTS - click here

vig is the common term for percentage paid weekly on a street loan from a loanshark. Points simply means percentage of whatever you are speaking about and can be used in any situation. I have met loansharks who use the term points instead of vig but i have never heard any1 use the term vig except loansharks. Hope that helps