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Vito and his capos...distrust? #584378
10/27/10 11:30 PM
10/27/10 11:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 102
New York
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Louren_Lampone Offline OP
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Louren_Lampone  Offline OP
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Made Member
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New York
Did Vito not fully trust Tessio and Clemenza?
When they first started out, he split them off, one in the Bronx and one in Manhattan.

And if they were old school friends, why would he mandate to them not to see each other through the years?


"Now, that plane goes to Miami."
"That's right. That's where I want it met."
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Louren_Lampone] #584390
10/28/10 05:37 AM
10/28/10 05:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
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MI
I'm not sure about the reference to school friends?

He trusted them as much as he trusted anyone in that business. The Don was a very cautious man and wanted to ensure that only he (and perhaps Genco/one of the Don's sons) had the big picture about what was going on.

So this means that Clemenza doesn't need to know what orders the Don gives Tessio and vice versa. Also both men together control almost of the Family's soldiers so the Don didn't want them to be too chummy with each other or get ideas about making changes at the top.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Lilo] #584414
10/28/10 11:05 AM
10/28/10 11:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,989
getthesenets Offline
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getthesenets  Offline
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Posts: 2,989
yeah, not about trust...

alliances, loyalties aren't concrete so to protect your own interests.....you structure your organization in a way that minimizes the chances of a coup being staged...

Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Louren_Lampone] #584416
10/28/10 11:54 AM
10/28/10 11:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
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dontomasso  Offline
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: Louren_Lampone
And if they were old school friends, why would he mandate to them not to see each other through the years?


Clemenza went to C.U.N.Y and Tessio went to Harvard. Tessio was always smarter.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: dontomasso] #584418
10/28/10 12:35 PM
10/28/10 12:35 PM
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Texas
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olivant Offline
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As the novel states, Vito split them off to reduce their opportunity to plot against him. Since Tessio was smarter (and a Harvard graduate), he caught Vito's drift right away. Clemenza's only concern was with the availability of restaurants in the Bronx.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: olivant] #584578
10/31/10 02:02 PM
10/31/10 02:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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Originally Posted By: olivant
As the novel states, Vito split them off to reduce their opportunity to plot against him. Since Tessio was smarter (and a Harvard graduate), he caught Vito's drift right away. Clemenza's only concern was with the availability of restaurants in the Bronx.

Also, the novel states two other reasons:
First, Clemenza was more impetuous than Tessio, and needed to be kept on a tighter leash. That's why Clem lived at the Mall, but Tess didn't.
Second, it was to Vito's advantage that his foes think that Tessio's distance meant that Tess was some kind of independent operator, the better to have the foes underestimate Vito.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Turnbull] #584697
11/01/10 04:13 PM
11/01/10 04:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline
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Danito  Offline
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Berlin, Germany
In GF2 it seemed that young Clemenza at first underestimated Vito, perhaps because Vito was just a neighbor who had done him a favor (hiding the guns). In the spaghetti scene he seemed more skeptical than Tessio. However, later he's pretty humble, for example in the deleted scene where he introduces young Hyman Roth.

Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Danito] #584766
11/02/10 12:38 PM
11/02/10 12:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted By: Danito
In GF2 it seemed that young Clemenza at first underestimated Vito, perhaps because Vito was just a neighbor who had done him a favor (hiding the guns). In the spaghetti scene he seemed more skeptical than Tessio. However, later he's pretty humble, for example in the deleted scene where he introduces young Hyman Roth.

Yes, the turnaround was remarkable. In an earlier deleted scene, following the dress factory robbery, Clem was still lording it over Vito--barking orders about where to make deliveries, making him wait while he did the job on one of his female prospects. But in the scene you cited (after Fanucci's murder), Clem's atttitude turned around completely. Nice touch: he takes off his hat in Vito's presence.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Turnbull] #584769
11/02/10 12:48 PM
11/02/10 12:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
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dontomasso  Offline
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I wonder if Clem's change from being such a hard ass to being somewhat meek demonstrates that maybe he knew his limitations and put on a tough front to fool strangers into thinking he was tougher than he was. After all he was pretty panicked when he stupidly threw guns to Vito (a complete stranger) and then tried to pretend the rug he was stealing was in a friend's house.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: dontomasso] #584803
11/02/10 09:33 PM
11/02/10 09:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
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AZ
That's a likely scenario, dt. Vito really pulled off a coup pretending to be passive (even meek) and letting Clem brag and show off. But after Clem and Tess showed they didn't have the coglione to challenge Fanucci, Vito stepped in with a perfect, gutsy solution. Clem's bigshot days were over. What I like about Clem and Tess at that point was that they were smart enough to recognize Vito as their superior and go along with his leadership, instead of resenting him and working against him. That took practical smarts.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Turnbull] #584839
11/03/10 10:42 AM
11/03/10 10:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
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dontomasso  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
What I like about Clem and Tess at that point was that they were smart enough to recognize Vito as their superior and go along with his leadership, instead of resenting him and working against him. That took practical smarts.


It was also a matter of pragmatism. Everyone was under Fanucci's thimb, and then Vito defeated Fanucci. It was clearly in their best interests to be aligned with him.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: dontomasso] #584840
11/03/10 11:21 AM
11/03/10 11:21 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
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The Last Woltz  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
I love the dynamics of that scene.

While it's obviously the first time we see a hint of what Vito would become, you also see the differences between Tessio and Clemenza, and that Tessio was always smarter.

Tessio is the first one to mention the idea of not paying Fanucci.

Clemenza isn't inclined to listen to Vito at all, and tries to dominate the conversation with his ideas, while (other than saying that someone else must be collecting for Maranzalla) Tessio says nothing at all.

He clearly is considering what Vito has to say, and immediately agrees once the plan is laid out.

Clemenza pouts and then reluctantly toasts, either upset that he's being usurped or lacking the vision to see that Vito has the intelligence and force of will to make his plan work.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: dontomasso] #584883
11/03/10 06:57 PM
11/03/10 06:57 PM
Joined: May 2010
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Sonny_Black Offline
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Sonny_Black  Offline
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Posts: 3,568
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
What I like about Clem and Tess at that point was that they were smart enough to recognize Vito as their superior and go along with his leadership, instead of resenting him and working against him. That took practical smarts.


It was also a matter of pragmatism. Everyone was under Fanucci's thimb, and then Vito defeated Fanucci. It was clearly in their best interests to be aligned with him.


But most importantly: the also liked Vito.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Sonny_Black] #584922
11/04/10 01:17 PM
11/04/10 01:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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Posts: 19,513
AZ
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
But most importantly: the also liked Vito.

Yes, but at the end of GF, Tessio, turned traitor, said: "Tell Mike it was business. I always liked him." wink


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Turnbull] #584928
11/04/10 01:40 PM
11/04/10 01:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
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dontomasso  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
But most importantly: the also liked Vito.

Yes, but at the end of GF, Tessio, turned traitor, said: "Tell Mike it was business. I always liked him." wink



I think Clemnza liked Vito but I am not so sure about Tessio. Clemenza was an extrovert who enjoyed his food, his wine, his dancing and his wife and kids.
Tessio, the smarter one was purely a businessman looking out for his own best interests. As soon as he thought the takeover by Michael was a done deal, he figured the Corleones would be toast and he turned traitor. I don't think that thought ever crossed Clemenza's mind.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Vito and his capos...distrust? [Re: Turnbull] #584956
11/04/10 06:43 PM
11/04/10 06:43 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
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Sonny_Black  Offline
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Posts: 3,568
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
But most importantly: the also liked Vito.

Yes, but at the end of GF, Tessio, turned traitor, said: "Tell Mike it was business. I always liked him." wink


Fair enough. wink


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."

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