ok Thanks...

Vito sent Luca out "fishing" no pun intended, before the meeting with Solozzo?

I'm thinking that in the timeline, Vito sent Luca out there way before the sit down with the Turk.

I'm gonna crack open the book and figure it our.....



The thing about the political clout/connections is that it seems like more than a smokescreen. It makes sense for Solozzo to have some if not all of Vito's connections in order to make the drug operation run smoother....and recruit better workers(who would have reason to believe that even if caught, that only a small sentence would be handed down)


Of course, the profits of drugs and the levels of separation between Solozzo and people handling drugs would be so great that there was still an enormous amount of money to be made......BUT.....operation runs smoother and more efficiently with Vito's assistance.

Solozzo offers money....and when that doesn't work...he knows he can't threaten or intimidate the Don into agreement, so he gets permission and plans a hit.

Seems like the way the organizations worked.... make a money offer...and if that doesn't work...intimdate the other guy...
worked with the "bandleader" and worked with the studio head..

Even Tom said that Solozzo's presence and bearing was equal to or greater than the Don himself. The Don wouldn't take NO for an answer and neither would the Turk(especially since he saw that Sonny was somewhat receptive to the money part of the deal).

Vito told Tom to "send Luca Brasi to see me" immediately after the drugs meeting because he sensed that Sonny's gaffe would create trouble for him. Luca probably came in to see him a day or two after being summoned. No telling when Luca made his first contact with the Tattaglias, but the novel states he was stringing them along for quite a while.

True TB - in the film. But in the novel Luca initiates contact with the Tattaglias several months before Vito's shooting. So, if we accept that Vito's shooting took place in mid-December and that the meeting with Sollozzo took place shortly after the wedding in August, then Luca probably contacted the Tattaglias in early September. But I don't think it was Sonny's gaffe that prompted Vito's action. I think he was suspicious of Sollozzo right from the beginning. After all, he postponed meeting with him until after Connie's wedding because he expected some trouble.

Actually it is said that Luca made contact after one week with Bruno Tattaglia, at Bruno's nightclub.

"On the night before the shooting of Don Corleone, his strongest and most loyal and most feared retainer prepared to meet with enemy. Luca had made contact with the forces of Sollozzo several months before."

"After a week of this affair with the call girl, Luca was approached by Bruno Tattaglia."

ok..

I'm starting to come around to the idea of Barzini being involved much earlier than I thought.

I have to still believe that the request for Vito's political/legal influence was a legitimate one and that the hit on Vito was a reaction to the results of the sit down.

Sonny speaking out of turn revealed a ch*nk in the armor of the Corleone family. Sollozo, Tattaglia, and perhaps Barzini at that stage , decided that eliminating the Don would eventually get them most of what they wanted from him in the first place.

Barzini is clearly a smart and formidable man and I don't think he got personally involved until after the sitdown.

I think the viewer has to at least be open to the possibility that no way, no how, here or ever, would Vito Corleone have participated in the drug business, and thus Barzini was well aware of that fact IMO while Sonny and Tom should have also been privy. I think Vito so anxiously awaited Michael's arrival at the wedding because he knew subconsciously he might need him in the impending war that would follow after his refusal of Sollozo and Barzini's deal

Atleast taht's the way I see it.

Barzini was almost certainly involved from the beginning. How else did he get his position of chairman at the meeting? He was also the one being questioned at by the feds at the start of the five families war according to one of the newspaper articles. And after the meeting Vito Corleone reveals the most important thing: Barzini was involved all along.

That's certainly possible, maybe likely. But that begs the question - if that's the case, why would Vito even bother to consult Tom and Sonny regarding their opinions prior to the meeting? Was it merely a test to evaluate their capacity to reason and persuade? I see no other rationale.

As the novel states, the Don told Tom that he was going to refuse Sollozzo's proposal. Then Vito assented to Tom's request for a family meeting on the proposal.

Not too sure about that.

I recall Vito not wanting the family picture to be taken until Michael arrives...something to be expected of almost any father. Considering his dialogue with Michael years later and toward the end of the film, it is doubtful he would have EVER wanted Michael to become involved in a family 'war', either consciously or subconsciously. (Let alone start one...which is EXACTLY what eventually resulted from Vito's refusal of Solozzo's offer.)

Of course, this is the problem we face when intermingling the book with the movie.

Apple

I think the consensus is that Vito wanted Michael to work for him in a capacity outside of the olive oil business. When he enlisted Tom told him that he and Vito had discussed "plans" for Michael. Vito wanted Michael to finish his education, and perhaps get a law degree or a business degree that would land him in a position where he could cement the family's political ties and union connections, but in a legal, or at least quasi legal way. He saw Michael as someone who could eventually move the family money into the "legitimate world" and get them out of the business they were in. Michael hints this when he tells Kay "My father's way of doing things is over. Even he knows that." I think Vito saw it playing out with the deaths or retirements of Clemenza and Tessio, and the dimunition of the street business. Sonny might have ended u as the Don in Vegas moving out Moe Greene, and establishing something out there. But, as Vito said, "There wasn't enough time."

[/quote] Vito told Tom to "send Luca Brasi to see me" immediately after the drugs meeting because he sensed that Sonny's gaffe would create trouble for him. Luca probably came in to see him a day or two after being summoned. [/quote]


I guess my question is...Does Tom summon Luca himself, or do you think he had someone else track Luca down? In the book, doesn't it say somewhere that Luca reported only to the Don? Yet in the film, doesn't Sonny actually tells Mike to call Luca during their meeting?

I think, Luca comes to the Don's office at the same day, if not within one hour or so.

I think "Luca reports only to the Don" in the sense that only the Don may give him orders/tell him what to do. Just calling Luca and telling him the Don wanted to see him would be within Tom/Sonny's ability.

Of course once the Don was out of action, theoretically authority to order Luca would have gone to Sonny, but both Sonny and Tom seem to be somewhat dubious as to whether anyone outside of the Don can really control Luca.

In book, when Don was shot in an earlier war it was Luca operating on his own and without orders who eliminated the Irish gangsters and the Five Families boss who had tried to protect them.

I believe Tom was never present when Vito gave orders to Luca. First, Luca's loyalty was exclusively to Vito, and I think he would never have accepted orders passed down through Tom. Second, since Luca was Vito's top (perhaps exclusive) killer, he wouldn't want any witnesses--not even Tom--when he gave a lethal, or any kind of criminal, order.

Though Vito instructed Tom to "send Luca Brasi to see me" after the drugs meeting, Tom wasn't present when Vito ordered Luca to get close to the Tattaglias. I wonder: If Tom was keeping his ear to the ground, and picked up that Luca was hanging around with the Tatts, would he have informed his Don? Or would he have figured out that Luca was doing it on instructions from Vito?

Oh no I don't think that Tom would have passed on orders to Luca or that he would have been present when Vito did so. I don't think it would have been unusual for Tom or more likely Genco to tell Luca the Don wanted to see him.

If Tom had picked up that Luca was hanging around the Tattaglias I think he would have been smart enough to figure out that Luca was doing so at the Don's bequest and circumspect enough not to mention it to anyone.

Unfortunately for Luca, the Tattaglias were smart enough to figure that out too...

Tom was smart enough to know that after Vito said "no" to Sol that the Tatts would not be pleased. Becuse Vito immediately asked Tom to send Luca to him, Tom would have deduced that Vito was using Luca to keep an aye on Sol and the Tatts.