"Much-discussed couplet."

[quote=Lovecraft
i had "a mountain walked or stumbled" tattoo'd on my chest two years ago, still one of my favourite pieces! [/quote]


I wanted "Johansen and his men were awed by the cosmic majesty of this dripping Babylon of elder demons, and must have guessed without guidance that it was nothing of this or any sane planet." But the tattoo artist ran out of ink.

Lovecraft was a HUGE influence on Stephen King.

I'm not seeing Tony Bennett showing up much.

Also a great voice --- a true cult figure --- Bobby Short.

"Much-discussed couplet."



haha



I believe I read in an interview years back that King was originally inspired to start writing after finding a copy of "Call of Cthulhu" in his attic and being horrified by the cover!

...Bruce...Springsteen...

Surprised with all the Brits posting here, none of them have cited Freddy Mercury yet.

I mean thats my contribution beyond the cliches like Elvis, Lennon, Plant, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, etc.

I would suggest another off-beat pick from a genre that hasn't exactly been brought up here so far: Eminem.

Really? But rap is only glorified talking at best (I'm holding back). Of course you all know how I feel about rap but still, I would suggest that that genre doesn't belong in this category since it really doesn't require a voice in terms of "singing". The thread's title is voices/singers, which I took as singing voices or singers with good singing voices. Then again perhaps the author of this thread disagrees.

TIS

The same was said back in the day rby the older (threatened) establishment regarding new genres and styles taking force of the charts, whether it be Sinatra or Elvis or Dylan or the Beatles or Black sabbath or Sex Pistols or whatever. They only "glorified talked" because the "singing" wasn't quite like the status quo of that time. Well with Pistols, you probably couldn't understand alot of their yelling, but regardless.

Hell, can't "glorified talking" perfectly describe Dylan? Are you willing to say Ozzy Osbourne is "singing"? For that matter, some people (despite scientific evidence to the contrary) claim Barry Manilow can "sing."

Its a subjective claim.



If he does, then that's just prejudicial. Reminds me of kids who dismiss Jazz for being just "random sounds."

I won't rant on and on about something you may inevitably dismiss, but regardless I would suggest just a handful of counter-arguments that demonstrate that good skill (and even range) is needed to make these classics work: Public Enemy's "Fight the Power," them and heavy metal group Anthrax on "Bring the Noise," the title track from n.w.a's STRAIGHT OUTTA COMPTON (arguably the greatest rap album), Notorious B.I.G.'s "Juicy," and Grandmaster Flash's "The Message," which Congress added in the inagural class of the National Recording Registry's archival list back in 2002. A honor that not even the Beatles pulled off.

Check them all up on Youtube. Come on fellow rap fans, help me out here.

As for Eminem, I would almost describe him as a rap Johnny Cash, speaking from sincere anger, hostility, and aggressiveness garnered from rearing up in white impoverished America, whether it be Cash from 1930s rural Arkansas wrecked by the Great Depression or Eminem from 1990s urban Detroit screwed by Reaganomics. Both men had (frequent) bouts with drugs and booze, both men were complete dicks to closed ones, both suffered from depression, and both at one point or another thought they inevitably would pull a Jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison or any of those great artists done in too early by their addictions. They both sincerely examined themselves (and their faults) in their emotional life stations frequently.

Probably why Cash's still resonates today decades later while the shallow contemporary Nashville country pop is forgotten within weeks, and Eminem is the first white MC rapper (outside of Beastie Boys) to be fully accepted by the black-dominated rap field/audience, not as a gimmick, but as the legitimate real deal. I'm almost tempted to call Mr. Marshall Mathers the Greatest Artist of the 2000s, this in spite of a 5 year Lennon-esque sabbatical from music during that decade.

But yes, the topic. Well how about the range Em displays? In "Real Slim Shady," he's being a sabotaging smartass pointing fingers back at the hypocritical society blaming him for their wills. In "Stan," he's roleplaying as a devoted fan (his fanbase in general) who see themselves way too much in him, and expect too much from a rapper. In "The Way I Am," he's the king of Rap yet he's truely fustrated. Or how about his fierce desperation in "Lose Yourself" (all time best-selling rap single).

Or the infamous "Kim," which he goes to a dark place within himself that few people have gone, or want to. You know that feeling of being unnerved by the end of Lennon's "Mother" when he's basically yelling for his parents who abandoned him to come back? Yeah "Kim" is even more uncomfortably disturbing.

Whoa!!! : Look at me I'm talking RAP!! (Geoff, Tupac would be proud)

As far as Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles, and others, yes they all were criticized in the beginning, but still they had singing voices, whether or not you think they are "good" voices is a matter of opinion. I never was much of an Ozzy fan, but I would call him a singer. On Dylan, I see you're point, but he still sang a tune (be it off key or likeable or whatever). Same with Johnny Cash, who's deep voice did sound much like speaking but still I would consider it singing. RAP to me, is rapidly cited poetry (loosely speaking) NOT belting out a tune.

Don't mean to ruffle feathers here, RR, but just as these artists with "good" voices that are mentioned here wouldn't be considered in any RAP thread as having a good rap voice, I just don't think RAP (being just that----Rapping) is singing. I think it's a category in itself.

TIS

All subjective, and I thought I tried to expand this thread's limits of "voices."

Hate to say this TIS, but you sorta remind me of those oldtimers in 1960s who thought Beatlemania was all about shaking heads and Woooo! and effeminate hairstyles. Everything but the point. Dick Clark initially dismissed them as "a glorified bar band." Girls didn't scream for McCartney and Lennon because of "Yesterday" or "Ticket to Ride," but because they were cute.

Right.

Hi RR

I admit, maybe a little technical, but I was limiting to "voices" (singing) only because of the thread title, but I am sure nobody will mind expanding it. That's how all these great conversations get started.

Oh, I was never much of a "screamer" but I loved the Beatles and the whole British Invasion stuff. It was in my era. Great exciting times. From the generation that thought 30 was over the hill, I guess I've reached the very top (although I don't feel like it fortunately).

Still, is it unreasonable or "old timer" thinking, putting Rap in a category all by itself?

TIS

I can understand this sentiment, since rapping emphasises lyrical invention and intricacy more than showing off lung power, but it's no more "glorified talking" than Celine Dion (for example) is "glorified screaming".

Hip-hop is as diverse a genre as they come, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss it; I suspect, TIS, your exposure to it has been limited to more popular stuff. Gangster rap?

Eminem is a sort of pop-rapper now.

Here are some of my favourite lyricists, and for that matter, vocalists, too. Because rapping is about delivery as well as poetry. Please listen, TIS, and lemme know whatchya think:

















All for now.

There's a story about Dick Clark and the Beatles that's probably more than apocryphal:

When Congress agreed to hold hearings on "payola" in `1960, ABC-TV required Clark to divest all of his extensive interests in record companies, publishing houses, song rights, etc., if he wanted to remain on the air with "American Bandstand." Later, Brian Epstein was desperately shopping for an American label for the Beatles, who were unknown in the US. He'd had poor sales with Decca and VeeJay. But he learned that two guys who were associated with Swan records, a Philadelphia label, were in England.

Thinking that Swan was still part-owned by Clark, Epstein contacted the two guys and made them an offer they couldn't refuse: he'd give them "She Loves You" for Swan, hoping that it would get guaranteed play on Bandstand. If "She Loves You" sold more than 50k copies in the US, Swan would have the rights to press and distribute all Beatles records in the US.

The two guys brought "She Loves You" to Clark, who by that time had to keep them and Swan at arms-length. He played the record once on the air and concluded that it, and the Beatles, were going nowhere fast in America. "She Loves You" failed to sell 50k records, and the deal never came off. Then, after Sullivan saw them in the UK in November and booked them for his show in January, Capitol got interested and the rest, as they say, is history...

To Capo, RR and whoever else cares:

You're right that most rap I've been exposed to (always involuntarily) is Gangster Rap. My daughters many times have reminded me that I once said, "Rap is just a passing thing or what we use to call a "flash in the pan." I was wrong obviously.

Sure, you may say Celine Dion screams, Yoko Ono sounds like a squealing mouse but both, IMHO are (attempts) at singing no?


Capo, I actually listened to the links you posted (I skipped ahead a little bit but for the most part heard each of them) . I'll say this much. Yes, it is different than the ganster rap(as I know it) not only in sound (although I can't put my finger on what it is about the sound) but also lyrically, which btw I understood nearly every word. Plus, for the most part, no trashy lyrics for the sake of trashy lyrics, if you know what I mean.

Of those you posted IF I had to choose, I would prefer Noah 23 Faded, probably because it had "Some" singing within the rapping. Oh and "Dead Men Don't Walk, They Only Decompose." Made me chuckle I don't think the very first song you posted is rap, but actually I like that one the best (I Built Myself A Metal Bird." It reminds me of a group from the 70"s that I can't put my finger on. I even tried to find the lyrics and was directed to the youtube site where I see someone else had asked about the lyrics as well.

All that being said, I'll accept that as you indicated "rhythmic timing" is a factor in this genre and I acknowlege that it's obviously very popular with many. I'm sure neither of our minds will be changed but on the topic of Voice/Singers, I still don't see it. Why not add audio books then? Although I am still LMAO trying to figure out how the fuck I got myself into a discussion on RAP. Trust me, it's funny!!


TIS

I didn't say Celine Dion screams; she very much sings. I said rap is 'no more "glorified talking" than Celine Dion is "glorified screaming"'. I don't know what glorified screaming is, by the way - nor do I know what glorified talking is.

FWIW, I would never have posted rap artists in this thread, if only because I understood the term "singers" to mean in this context a specific style of singing. I was just trying to defend rap as a genre against a rather broad dismissal.

That's not to say (in a thread titled "Greatest Voices") that Q-Tip's voice isn't the most soothing, comforting and familiar voice I've heard. If "soothing", "comforting" and "familiar" aren't in some way indicators of a "great singing voice", then I dunno what is.

I posted the Silver Mt. Zion song so that people could listen to my previous recommendation in this thread, Efrim Menuck. Great voice; my favourite band, maybe.

These may all be true, but don't really argue the case for rapping to be included under 'singing'. Lyrical content is quite different to style of delivery.

John Lennon's "Imagine" may (or may not) be beautifully sung, but to me it's a pretty empty song lyrically.

Vocal musicality - or musical vocality? - is singing. Rap is singing in a certain style as much as a ballad is sung in a certain style.

FWIW, I would never have posted rap artists in this thread, if only because I understood the term "singers" to mean in this context a specific style of singing. I was just trying to defend rap as a genre against a rather broad dismissal.


Capo,

Please feel free to post whatever you want in this thread. I'm the one who said the "rap" is another category. I have my opinion, just as you have yours and my guess is many will agree with you moreso than me. My opinion isn't worth much anyway, but I still have one Afterall, even if it were "expanding a topic", it's not like we've never done it before.

It would be interesting to have others chime in here though. What does everyone else think. Does Rapping belong in the "Greatest Singers/Voices" thread??

TIS

S'all good, TIS.

I'll chip in with a few more of my favourite singing voices.

Thom Yorke, of Radiohead:


Bryan Ferry, of Roxy Music:


Gordon Lightfoot:


José González:


Andreya Triana, here with Bonobo (I saw these perform live recently, they're great):

Nice pick on Gordon L, "Beautiful". He does have a unique voice and that song showcases the warmth of his vocals.

As far as the Voice/Singer thing. It is a broad category with respect to definition and judgement. The way the post is phrased...Voice/Singer...leaves it open to a wide spectrum of interpretation. James Earl Jones has a great voice, but he is not a singer. One definition of singing: "to utter words or sounds in succession with musical modulations of the voice; vocalize melodically." I suppose RAP would fit this definition, but the modulation is typically minimal; usually within a few notes. There are singers who can expand their range to 4 octaves. So if you put Voice and Singer together for evaluation....you be the judge. Personally, I like vocal range, the ability to sustain a note and the timbre of the voice.(the characteristic quality of sound produced by a particular instrument or voice; tone color.)

Yes, if we get into speaking voices, James Earl Jones is great AND didn't Rod Serling strike the perfect tone narrating the Twilight Zone? I always thought Chris Krisstofferson had a nice speaking voice as well.

Oh, and how nice to hear Gordon Lightfoot again. I can't remember when I last heard him.

TIS

I think rapping and singing are slightly different talents but there are some great voices within rap. Either way you still need to understand melody, rhythm and harmony. Rap and its antecedents have been around for longer than one might think.

Here is a rapper from 1969 working with Jimi Hendrix and Buddy Miles



This is Joe Tex doing Papa was Too ( a version of Tramp) notice that the cadence is somewhat close to modern day rap although this is also from the late sixties -1968 I believe.

Hey, Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues" predates both of those.

And incidentally, that Digable Planets track I posted above recalls Dylan's John Wesley Harding and, in particular, in terms of narrative style and vocal delivery, "Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest".

Of course you don't have hip-hop without Jamaican toasting.

Yes it does but not Louis Jordan's Saturday Night Fish Fry..



No doubt. But I think the primary guy would have been James Brown-who had a great voice but is really not someone I would call a great singer..

What about Pavarotti?

Sam Harris was the 1st winner of the Star Search in the 80s(?) hosted by Ed McMahon (probably the inspiration for American Idol). His winning rendition of Over the Rainbow was one of the best vocalizations I've ever heard sung. It was so inspiring and the note he hit at the end and the time he held it was awesome.

In that vein, I'd have to add Mandy Patinkin. His versions of "Over The Rainbow", "Danny Boy" and "Soliloquy" from "Carousel" are incredible. I've seen him twice in concert and he's just as good live, and he's pretty funny, too. Plus, he closes every concert with, "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

I think I was trying (probably not successfully) to make a point how Eminem had to make subtle vocal differences in the delivery of those songs to make happen whatever thematic idea he had in mind. Assuming he had one in the first place mind you, but regardless.

Thanks for the pinch hit with the tapes.

EDIT- Funny, I thought you would have loved that ultimate Marxist dream?

"Imagine" is utopianist, not scientific socialist.

Was listening to Live at the Harlem Square Club 1963 today and...well, Sam Cooke clearly