This is related to the other thread on Vito's drug fears. The argument Tom Hagen made to Vito was that if the Corleones didn't get into the drug business, the other families would, and in time, maybe ten years, they would have enough money to buy political cover for themselves and then they would come after the weakened Corleones. Assuming this was correct why didn't Barzini just finance the drug trade, and buy off politicians, allowing Sol and Tatt to be the fall guys, and then move in on a weakened Corleone family?

1) In the short term it would have been extremely risky and difficult for Barzini and Sollozzo/Tattaglia to run their business without Corleone assistance. As Barzini pointed out "[Vito] controlled all the judges". Without some sort of legal help/protection, as Sollozzo mentioned in the book , facing a 30 year sentence even a Sicilian might lose his nerve and start talking his brains out.

2) Barzini and Sollozzo weren't patient men. Barzini and Tattaglia had presumably taken the unorganized drug trade as far as they could take it without Vito's backing. They didn't want to wait another five or ten years to build up the capital and connections or wait for mores to change.

3) Sollozzo in particular felt personally humiliated. As he mentioned he did not intend to submit to another man's will. If Vito wouldn't assist, get rid of him and get somebody in there who would.

Sounds too messy for Barzini's taste.

Seeing as how the judges & politicians were in Vito's pockets like so many nickels and dimes, they would probably be loyal to the Corleone Family. Barzini's attempting to muscle in might be sufficient enough reason for a war, without his ever having fired a shot.

Whether they anticipated Don Corleone's turning Solozzo down or not, there was a certain way they had to go about this. His refusal to cooperate gave the red light to have Vito eliminated thereby open the door to work with his son(s). Strictly business.

Even with these people there was a certain amount of 'decorum' involved.

Apple

Barzini probably could have financed Sol by himself. But, as Lilo and Apple noted, Vito "controlled all the judges in New York." So, without his protection, the drugs business would always be endangered.

I've often wondered why, if Sol needed Vito's judges, he tried to kill him, thereby losing, as Tom predicted to Sonny, "half our police and political protection." Wouldn't that mean that Sol would lose access to them, too? I believe that Sol's (and Barzini's) strategy was that Vito's death would gravely weaken the Corleones. Then Sol could dicker for the remaining half of the Corleones' politicos and judges at a bargain rate. The other half wold be fair game for Barzini to purchase. I also believe Sol's attempted murder was not only a "self-respect" thing, but a ploy to make himself a pezzanovante with the other Dons. And, while they wouldn't try to kill Vito on their own, if Sol was willing to do the job, why not let him? Barzini, in particular, stood to gain: the Corleones would come after Tattaglia (as they did with Bruno), and he'd pick up the pieces (as he almost did).

I just don't buy the reason for murdering Vito if Sollozzo needed Vito's connections. Those connections were based on Vito's personal relationship with judges and politicans. If the connections were not based on Vito's personal relationship with them, then all of the five family dons could simply set up a system of payment for them. I think that Barzini may have convinced Sollozzo that the hit on Vito would somehow aid and abet the drug operation or, atleast, would not harm it. It just doesn't make any sense.

Vito's death, and its impact on his judges and politicians, would have benefitted Barzini/Sollozzo greatly.

Regarding Vito's connections, his death would have one of two effects, either of which would have helped the Barzini Family and hurt the Corleone Family:

1. Vito's contacts are up for grabs to the highest bidder. (Incidentally, Tom says Vito's death would cost the family "our political contacts and half our strength," not half of their political contacts.) Sollozzo and Barzini would surely be in position to scoop up at least some of them.

2. Vito's contacts are out of the game entirely, either because they don't trust any of the other Dons to be discreet or because Vito's right and they won't protect drug dealers. Again, this benefits Barzini and Sollozzo, because they'd at least have an even chance to operate without being caught. However, if Vito had lived, he surely would have used his connections to destroy the drug operation once he percieved the slightest threat.

Come on. The highest bidder? If that were the case, what makes you think that Barzini or any other Don wasn't able to match or exceed any offer for their cooperation? The very quote you cite proves that the loss of political contacts was based on vito's personal relationship with them. Your second point reinforces that.

Most likely because of Sonny. Because of what we fondly refer to as Sonny's 'slip', 'Sol' knew he was hot for the deal. He (and Barzini) knew that EVERYONE except Vito realized that it would be a profitable deal for all. The 'connections' would've fallen into line even with Vito Corleone dead.

Apple

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, Olivant. I'm just trying to demonstrate that, from Barzini and Sollozzo's POVs, killing Vito was a good move regardless of whether Vito's connections were based on personal relationships or greed.

Also, don't forget that Tom, in an earlier meeting with Vito, points out that, with the money they'd earn from drugs, other Families would be able to "buy more police and political power."

Woltz, it still doesn't make any sense. Why murder the man you just asked to provide you with something that you cannot provide yourself if you believe that such provision is essential to your efforts? Tom was probably right about the future, but it was the present with which Sollozzo was concerned. If Barzini and/or Tattaglia had adequate judicial connections, then the need for Vito's assistance was obviated.

That was my original contention. On the other hand, Vito's refusal meant that Sol could not do business. He either had to retreat with his tail between his legs, or do something else. Killing Vito and then hondling with Sonny and Tom may not seem logical to us, but I suppose Sol and his supporters felt it was preferable to his simply going back to Turkey or Sicily.

I know TB. But some Board members have essentially posted that once Vito was eliminated, Sonny could just simply continue to bribe judges despite the loss of Vito's personal relationship with those judges since it was, apparently, all just a matter of money. So, if that's true, it begs the question: why couldn't Barzini or Tattaglia supply the money? Why did they need Vito then? And given the enormous profits associated with drugs, I just don't see Sollozzo or Barzini saying "Vito won't help. Gosh darnnit, what are we gonna do now?

I'd bet that a lot of those who'd bail out if Vito died would do so because they knew Sonny was a hothead and couldn't be relied upon to be discrete and measured.

In the novel, Tom visits Johnny in Hollywood and says Vito will help him get the Oscar. Johnny right away senses that he'd be called on to do some things in return, and tells Tom something to this effect: "If my Godfather wants me to do something, I have to hear it from him...I'm not gonna take it from Sonny." The novel then says something to the effect, "Hagen was impressed by the good sense of this. Vito asking for some favor was one thing, Sonny asking was quite another."

The loss of a 'personal relationship' with Vito wouldn't necessarily mean the freedom to simply 'break' with the Corleone Family. Whether Sonny was the Head or not, there would be consequences to that kind of a move.

And if indeed they had such a 'personal' relationship with Vito, then the judges etc. might not be so quick to jump out of his pocket and into Barzini's or Tattaglia's. There would be consequences to THAT as well.

That HAD to at least attempt to go about this with Vito's cooperation and assistance. He had too much respect amongst the 'Families' for the narcotics trade to be undertaken without his being approached.

As for Johnny Fontaine, there is a bit of a difference between what a godson can say and what a bought judge/politician can say. And besides, when Johnny said he would take orders from Vito not Sonny...Vito was alive. Who knows if he would have been so bold with Vito dead and Santino the 'Official' Head of the family (although he did buckle pretty quickly to Michael's wishes in the movie...oh, yeah this is the MOVIE forum).

Vito's refusal "was not the act of a friend," as Barzini noted at the summit meeting. As the head of one of the virtual coalition of five families, he "must share" his resources. Without that assistamce (judges, political protection, etc.) the others could not do the business they wanted to do. When Barzini pointed this out, he hit it on the nail - Vito's refusal was seen as betraying an unspoken but well understood tenet of the uneasy coalition, and perceived as endangering the bisseniss. Those remarks allowed Vito to realize immediately that it was "Barzini all along" - not that pimp Tattaglia.