I was reading a thread but can't seem to find it but in short it was about how fredo didn't know they were gonna try to kill mike in the "drapes" scene. Then later in the movie when we find out fredo was the traitor during his phone call from johnny ola, he says that they lied to him...suggesting that he didn't know they were planning to kill mike.

I'm convinced that fredo was actually somewhat "smaht" and knew and agreed on every little detail but one. He knew they were going to kill mike. Infact, he probably showed the killers mike and kays bedroom so they could devise a well thought out plan to assassinate him. They probably opened the drapes. The thing is...the plan was to kill mike...and mike only. I think when fredo initially heard the scheme, he made it clear that he wanted kay and the children to not be anywhere in harm's way. Roth agreed and told fredo that it would be so precise that "michael probably won't feel a thing...and kay and the kids?...my men are good men and they would never harm innocent women and children." When he found out that the attempt was execution style with kay and the children possibly being harmed...he knew they had "lied" to him.

What y'all think?

I have said this before, and I have come to the conclusion that Fredo knew it waas going to be a hit and he lied to Mike.
In the conversation with Ola Fredo also says that he is in enough trouble as it is. I think the "lie" he refers to is that there would be something in it for him on hs own if he helped him.

What Fredo tells Michael in the boathouse scene is simply ridiculous, and it shows that he was not smaht at all. Fredo's big issue is that he was passed over, that he didn't really do anything in the family business except pick people up at the airport and run mickey mouse night clubs. Since that was the case how in the world would Fredo have been able to persuade Michael to go easy on some undefined "negotiations" in exchange for something "on my own?"
Fredo did not participate in Michael's negotiations with Roth, and that is made very clear when Fredo nervously shows up with the money in Havana and asks Michael what is all of this about.

Don't forget that Fredo ran Moe's hotel and at least one brothel too. Without any other access to Mike's inner circle, the default for Roth had to be Fredo. As far as any lie goes, with Mike still alive there was no opportunity for Roth to reward Fredo. So, his lie reference would not have been to the lack of any reward.

If we assume Fredo 'knew' there was going to be a hit on Michael, then we have to assume he knew it would be THAT night. It's possible that while they were blowing smoke at him with this 'negotiations' farce, the at-home assassination was being planned behind his back. All they needed was a way to infiltrate the compound, and even if Fredo assisted with that in some way, he just doesn't seem capable of being involved in Michael's murder.

As for who opened those drapes, the answer still stands that there is NO logical answer to that. Because whoever opened them would have to have done it while Kay was lying there, which would take quite a bit of deftness that a Fredo Corleone was incapable of. For the drapes to have been opened earlier in the day, amidst all the activity of both party and business...would have been virtually impossible. And even if someone managed it, they would have been immediately closed by Kay upon her entering the room to get ready for bed.

There is no logical answer to the opening of the drapes. Fredo did not know there was going to be a hit on Michael.

Apple

If Fredo was really as "smaht" as he believed he was, he'd know how to correctly pronounce the word "nego-see-ations."

If he was unsure, he could have axed somebody...

tony b.

Whether or not Fredo opened the drapes, he was in up to his neck in the conspiracy against Michael. See here for my theory:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post472494

What are all these posts about opening grapes? Why would anyone want to open grapes? You eat grapes, you don't open them and how would you open them anyway?

Oh... what's that? It's opening drapes, not grapes? Okay. Never mind.

You only open grapes to make wine.

That is, of course...unless they are SOUR grapes.

Yes, Fredo was up to his neck in conspiracy against Michael. Even he admitted that.

No, that doesn't necessarily mean he knew it was going to be 'a hit'.

Even Michael volunteers that 'Roth misled him' in order to beckon him home. That wasn't just to lull Fredo into a sense of false security. They all believed he knew very little, and provided just enough information (whatever that may have been - it's never revealed) to enable the plot to be carried out.

What did Michael think? Did he believe Fredo knew about the hit? When did he change his mind? During the boathouse conversation?
It's one of the moments that I don't really understand even though it's powerful: "Fredo you're nothing to me now you're not a brother, you're not a friend."
Was Michael angry because
- Fredo didn't deliver more infor about the hearing?
- Fredo by his epileptic behavior showed that he knew in fact it was going to be a hit?
- Fredo put his own interests over the family?

I'm still not sure about this. DT has some good arguments.
But I think I still have to come down on the side that Fredo was not explicitly told that it was going to be a hit. His anger at the late night call from Ola seems genuine.

However, people lie to themselves ALL the time. In the movie "Devil in a Blue Dress" the hero Easy Rawlins subdues an enemy and tells his extremely dangerous friend Mouse "not to shoot him." When Easy comes back he finds that the man is dead and angrily confronts Mouse with "I thought I told you not to kill him!". Mouse coolly responds "You told me not to shoot him. So I strangled him. If you didn't want him dead, why'd you leave him with me?"

Similarly it's unlikely that Fredo could have believed that Roth meant any good towards Michael. Roth/Ola might not have said anything to make Fredo face the facts of what they were planning.

The mechanics of the hit, people who knew where Michael's home was, were either able to get on the property at will, or hide on the property undetected for hours, show that Fredo had to be involved on some level. If he truly didn't know that it was a hit then he is too stupid to be trusted. And although he's not as smart or as tough as his brothers I don't think he was that dumb. And Michael didn't either..

I like to think that if Fredo hadn't dropped the mask in the boathouse and shown his utter jealousy of and frustration with Michael and had stuck to his line of "I didn't know, Mikey" that he might have just gotten away with the internal exile. But the hatred revealed there made Michael realize he could never trust Fredo again with anything. Fredo had to go. The boathouse scene might have made Michael feel that he didn't know Fredo anymore, "You're not a brother, you're not a friend". Also I think Michael had had more time to think about what had really happened-he and his wife and children were nearly killed because of Fredo. As Michael saw it he had protected and watched out for Fredo and was paid back by the ugliest betrayal possible.

I don't think there can ever be a drapes answer because even Fredo can't be stupid enough/cunning enough to waltz into his sister-in-law's bedroom at just the right time, avoid detection and open the drapes, all the while not knowing it was a hit.

And who killed the two hitters? They were outside of Fredo's home which suggests some sort of planned rendezvous. And if Fredo killed them (slitting their throats?) then he is more dangerous and capable than he was letting on.

Or maybe there was another traitor..

I believe Michael may have been contemplating giving Fredo a pass. But in that boathouse meeting, when Fredo showed that he knew that the Feds had Pentangeli and, more important, that Questadt belonged to Roth, Michael knew Fredo was in with Roth far deeper than he had seemed at first. The clincher was Fredo's anger and resentment at Michael. He knew that Fredo would be a danger to him as long as he lived.

To Lilo's point about self-deception:

In the Ian Fleming novel, "Thunderball," Giuseppe Petacchi, the NATO pilot who is contacted by SPECTRE to hijack and deliver a bomber with atomic weapons on board, is told by SPECTRE that they're a political group that wants to call attention to themselves through the hijack. Fleming writes, "Petacchi closed his ears to this specious tale. He didn't care what their motivation was, as long as he got paid." Similarly, Fredo may not have cared what Roth and Ola told him their plans were for Michael--as long as he got to be the Don.

Number three.

Judging from the 'You're nothing to me now...' speech, and how he calmly instructs Neri after the conversation is over...Michael went in there knowing exactly what he was going to have done with Fredo. First, he wants information, and, if Fredo would like to provide one...an explanation. He sure does get one.

Not that he would've changed his mind over Fredo's fate...but the outburst and profession of bitter jealousy only serves to solidify Michael's resolve that he will always be a danger to the Family, can NEVER again be trusted and has to die.

Cold as it may sound, it truly was a 'business' decision on Michael's part.

As was Fredo's decision to assist Roth.

Apple

I think that Michael was angry because he was going to kill Fredo. The words, "...not a brother...not a friend," are the beginning of Michael's dehumaniztion of Fredo, which is finally completed when Fredo is lumped (unnamed) with Roth and Michael's other "enemies."

Probably not. The anger was past. He was resigned to it and there was little if any emotion at all.

But the fact that he acknowledged Fredo could still visit their mother, and that HE would be the one to leave during these visits, and that he ordered nothing happen while their mother was alive (probably all insisted upon by Puzo), indicates that it was a well thought out decision. No anger, no sadness...just what had to be done.

Apple

I've always thought that Fredo knew that it was going to be a hit on Michael. Maybe he had no idea that Kay and the kids would be included & maybe he in fact did know that Kay and the kids would be included. When he says to Michael in the boathouse scene that he had no idea it was going to be a hit he was lying through his teeth trying to appeal the brotherly connection in order to save his own skin knowing full well what the retaliation would be.

But that's just my 2 cents

The degree of betrayal will always be debated, however all that was just discussed makes perfect sense, recently wathing "II" again i was focusing on those points in particular and came to a very similar if not the same conclusion about Fredo's involvement. He wanted to take over and believed R&O, whether he "knew" it was gonna be a hit or not will always be debated. i believe he did. He was the only one to access the house comfortably and "open the drapes". Also in a very early scene at Anthony's First Communion reception, when Fredo "apologizes" to Michael about his wife. Notice the expression on Fredo's face when Michael tells him he don'y have to apologize. The expression (on Fredo)is one of "knowing something", "worry"' and almost "guilt" simutaniously. Is that a clue? John Cazale was such a great actor and could show a lot with settle expression! any other thoughts?

Since we know that by the time of Anthony's Communion Fredo had already been working with Ola & Roth for god knows how long, then yes he would have a look of guilt and knowing something on his face.

However, that look does not necessarily convey that he was aware of and taking a crucial role in a planned assasination of Michael that was to take place that very evening.

Correct Apple, but that is the unresovled issue..... did he know? we have to go by (in this case) what FFC/Puzo put on screen. Unlike the original which had a 'novel' to fall back on for reference, this wasnt a novel and I feel that actors expression will fill the blanks. Im not sayin you're wrong Apple, we need these discussions on this forum, and i thank you for your opinion, I just really beleive that eyes/actions speak louder than words (dialougue). I want to beleive that FFC/Puzo were so clever as to plan a story with so much "who, how, when?....and what if's" that we're at this moment discussing an authors purpose/intent......BRAVO!!!

Yes, it IS an unresolved issue whether or not Fredo really knew about 'the hit' (although unlike other issues that are NOT answered he outright says he didn't)...and it's been discussed/debated here for years.

Some believe that he did know and some (like me) feel that he didn't. The reason is that, as resentful as he was it just doesn't seem in character for Fredo to knowinly take part in the killing of his brother. Even HE would know that that would completely destroy the Family and lead to NOTHING for him. It is much more believable that he really did fall for that ridiculous story given by Ola. I don't think Ola & Roth would have been foolish enough to even suggest to Fredo that they plan to wipe Michael out, need his help to get this accomplished, and then will give him a prominent position in their new empire. No matter how anyone slices it...it just does NOT make sense that Fredo knew of the hit.

While eyes/actions DO sometimes speak louder than words, I don't see how we can surmize by Fredo's 'guilty' look during that scene that he was in on a plot to kill Michael that very evening. Just knowing he had been speaking w/ Ola/Roth behind Michael's back was enough to generate plenty of guilt on his face, especially after being told by Michael he has nothing to apologize for.

But speaking of actions:
Fredo Corleone as played by John Cazale would've simply been incapable of sitting at dinner with his entire family, including his mother, casually explaining Italian expressions to his wife with his mouth full of food...while knowing his brother was supposed to be shot dead in just a few hours. He would not only have been a basket case nervous wreck, but probably would not have even been able to sit at the table.

And while it's fun to feel that Puzo/FFC were clever enough to present so as to generate this kind of discussion of their intent, and really no harm in feeling that way...I don't think that is the case, there are too many similar holes throughout the film, FFC has already admitted that he would've needed more time to develop an even BETTER story than the one we got...and at the time neither could've possibly envisioned an internet and discussion board by which people like us meticulously could pick at their film(s) so thoroughly from the comfort of our homes.

Apple

We all know Fredo wasn't the "smart" one when it came to mafia business but I don't think he was like retarded or anything. I mean if he felt that there was a threat to Mike's life he would have let Mike know. Even Mike who everybody thinks is the most clever mafia don ever didn't see it coming. I agree with Apple Fredo was the type of guy who wouldn't be able to sit at the dinner table with his mother knowing his brother was about to be whacked. He wouldn't be able to go out fishing with his nephew. I still don't belive Fredo ever wanted to be the Don. I think he just wanted to be a respected mobster. Fredo wasn't cut out to be a mobster but he was good at the casino business and things like that. If you are a smart mobster it doesn't mean you are smart in other areas of life.

very good Apple! you just covinced me! after reading your post and studying ptII again, thanks for the new outlook, i howeveer think he was more involved than assumed, and also Rocco, I believe was involved in some way. I think the internal treachery goes way deeper that is assumed/portrayed!