I mean, absolutely none. I'm thinking of the Las Vegas scene in GF 1. Couldn't Michael, Tom, the Don, or someone have informed Fredo that his father was "semi-retired" and that Michael was now in charge? It looked to me like he didn't have a clue about this until Tom told him in the middle of the meeting. Seems like a pretty vital piece of information to keep from anyone in the family, even poor hapless Fredo!

FREDO: “You know MAMA used to tease me. She'd say, uh-"You don't belong to me; you were left on the doorstep by gypsies." Sometimes I think it's true”.
MICHAEL: You're no gypsy, FREDO.

It's the way pop wanted it.




Don Cardi

Oh, I love this topic! I could make a thousand posts about the way Fredo is treated. Don't get me started... (Too late, you already did; but I promise to keep it under a thousand .)

And there's something else about that Vegas scene. Michael had castigated Moe Green for "slapping his brother around in public," and then at the end of the meeting, Moe hits Fredo AGAIN -- in front of everybody, even Michael. (Moe is so angry about Michael having the audacity to want to buy him out that, when he gets up from the table, we hear this crash, as though he's just swept a few of the plates and glasses from the table onto the floor. Then, when Fredo offers to smooth things over, Moe punches him -- or shoves him hard -- in the shoulder.)

Now Moe probably does this to show Michael he darn well won't take orders from any Corleone and he'll slap around whomever he pleases when he pleases. But to use Fredo as an example like this is just wrong. This is just one of the embarrassing episodes that build up and lead to Fredo's feelings of inadequacy until his desperate need to be of value leads him to collude with Roth and Ola.

OK, it's me again. (I told you I love this topic.)

In one of the deleted scenes (I believe) in GF1, when Vito and his sons are going to visit Genco, Vito tells Michael that he never comes to him as a son should, and that he eventually wants to have a talk with him.

But why didn't Vito come to Fredo as a father should? He has a heart-to-heart talk with Michael after Sonny's death when Michael returns from Sicily. Why didn't he sit down with Fredo and have a heart-to-heart talk with him explaining why he thought it best that the torch be passed to Michael? Did Vito think that Fredo was so simple that he wouldn't mind being stepped over as rightful heir? Why didn't Vito, Michael (and Tom, for that matter) tell Fredo how valuable his training in the casino business was to them, now that they were going to make serious moves into that aspect of the business?

And, to make things worse for Fredo, we come to the episode Dona mentions. What does Michael do but go to Las Vegas -- Fredo's training ground, Fredo's niche -- and propose to buy out Moe Green and move all the family's interests to Nevada WITHOUT letting Fredo know any of this beforehand. In fact, Fredo happens to overhear it while Michael is mentioning it to Johnny Fontane! It appears that Fredo doesn't even know that Vito is semi-retired and that Michael is now the acting CEO. And all this sets Fredo up to be scolded by Michael (and he doesn't do it privately, but in front of everyone who's there -- Tom, Al Neri, and Johnny Fontane).

I know all this had to be done for dramatic reasons: to make the narrative interesting and to show the changes in Michael's character; and it certainly sets up the tragic arc of GF2. But just for discussion reasons, don't you think Vito and Michael -- who clearly love Fredo -- were very unthinking in their treatment and put mafia interests above basic human courtesy?

OK, I'm back (couldn't stay away ).

When Michael mentions to Moe Green that Moe slapped Fredo around in public, Fredo looks embarrassed. How do you think Michael found out about this? I guess the Corleones would have eyes all over Las Vegas, but do you think Fredo also reported this to Michael? ("That Moe Green is a real hothead. He even smacked me a couple of times.")

However, with all those macho mafia types in the room, their imaginations might be picturing Fredo in another way ("wah! Moe Green hit me... sniff sniff"), so it's no wonder Fredo would be discomfitted. But regardless, why would Michael even mention that he knew about these assaults in front of all those other people in the room? Why wouldn't he confront Moe privately about it?

Well, I guess I know that Michael's not thinking of Fredo's feelings at this time; but I'd still like to know what others think of this.

I think Fredo knew in Vegas that the Don was semiretired. I think he blurted out his statement as a way of placating Moe Green--as if to say, "Gee, I'm sorry you and my brother are at an impass. Maybe my Dad can resolve it." Either way, it made Fredo look stupid--a sure sign of disrespect.
Another: In the flashback scene at the end of GFII, after Sonny complains about the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor on Vito's birthday, Fredo replies, "The Japs didn't know it was Pop's birthday." Duhhh... He also shakes Michael's hand after Michael says he joined the Marines--and Sonny slaps his hand away.

CW what is most humiliating to Fredo in the scene is that Michael thinks he has trumped Moe Green by saying "Is that why you slap my brother around in public?" and Moe says he has a business to run and he has to straighten people out, and Michael really focuses on Moe and says "You straighten my brother out?" Then Moe says "He was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time and players couldnt get a drink at the tables." So Michael has to retreat from that line of attack, so he says "My plane leaves in the morning, think about a price." In other words, Michael had no come back once he learned WHY Moe slapped Fredo.

So what does Clueless Fredo do? He starts into this "Moe and me are good friends right Moe?" and then tries to intervene with Tom. Unbelievable. When Moe sees that mike is having none of this, he simply walks out of the room as if Fredo wasnt even there.

And then Michael makes that chilling threat to Fredo, and he does it in front of everyone left in the room.

Me agin (sorry CW) The only time Tom is really sarcastic and mean is when he talks to Fredo. Ar Mama's funeral Fredo asks him where Mike is and Tom says "He's in the boathouse. Waiting for you to leave."

Not at all, dontomasso. I don't own this topic, I'm just enjoying it. Although with my three posts in a row, you might feel like you're having a conversation with someone who won't let you get a word in edgewise .

You make an interesting observation about that whole Vegas scene, especially where Fredo slaps Moe on the back and says, "Me and Moe, we're good friends. Right Moe?" I don't think Moe even likes Fredo, and Fredo's response seems so much like a victim trying to stay on the good side of a bully. Sure, Moe enters the room all friendly and chummy; but it's a slick, phony kind of friendliness. We see his true colours and how he really feels about the Corleone family as soon as he and Michael start talking.

And there's another thing I've always wondered.

In GF2 when Michael tells Fredo he's nothing to him now, not a brother, not a friend, etc., he also says that he doesn't want to see Fredo at any of the hotels and (I think) casinos. In short, he doesn't want to see him again.

Did this mean that Fredo was banished to New York (from whence he came after escaping Havana)? How did he support himself? When he arrived for Mama's funeral, it just "felt" as though he was a visitor returning from elsewhere, far away. Was that the case? Was Fredo fired from Michael's hotels and casinos, or did he still work in them but Michael arranged it so their paths would never cross? I also thought all the Corleones lived on the "estate"? Where did Fredo live after Michael disowned him?

I just think it would have surely been another humiliation for Fredo if he had to work in Michael's hotels, live on Michael's estate, depend on Michael for his "living allowance" (or whatever payment he receives out of the family funds) while all the while people are whispering behind his back about why he and his brother are so estranged.

Me again (where have I heard THAT before)...

First of all, who care's where Fredo lived after that scene?

That aside...it can probably be safely assumed that Vito Corleone left a sizeable inheritance/trust to each of his living children, and to the widow and children of Santino. While no longer useful to Michael and the Corleone Family Fredo Corleone would have had little trouble finding comfortable living arrangements.

I think that when he said he didn't want Fredo near the hotels, that he didn't want to know him or what he did, that pretty much meant that Fredo was no longer an employee of the Corleone Family.

By the way, at his mother's wake, Fredo most certainly WAS '...a visitor returning from elsewhere, far away...' and deserved to be treated so. Were it not for his sister Connie, he would probably have been escorted out after a reasonable amount of time with mama. Fredo was lucky Michael even did him the favor of waiting in the boathouse while allowing him to come & pay his respects.

Apple

ps - Moe Green did not "HIT" Fredo in that hotel scene in Vegas. Moe was already storming his way out of the room when Fredo (stupidly) tried to hold him back and reason with Tom to get Don Corleone involved. What Moe did was pull his arm away in anger, disgust and frustration.

But if you watch the movie a few more times maybe you'll eventually figure that out, along with alot of other things that aren't worth nitpicking here on the BB.

Fredo probably had accumulated some independent means over the years, Cristina. I think Michael's speech was more about firing Fredo from his life than firing Fredo from his jobs in the family.
The more revealing aspect, IMO, is Michael's sense of possession. He says to Fredo, "...I don't want you near my home" [emphasis added]. Not "our" home. I always thought Fredo and Connie lived (or had lived) on the Tahoe compound just as if it were the Long Beach "Mall" in days of old. But Michael owned it. He does acknowledge that he and Fredo share a mother ("When you want to visit our mother, I want a day's notice--so I won't be there").

It seems pretty clear that Connie didn't live anywhere near Michael until after the death of their mother, when she humbly asked to stay close to home and take care of him. Another clue of that is at the beginning of the film, when mama mentions sending a car to the airport a week earlier from wherever Connie (and Merle) was supposed to be coming from at the time.

I also never got the impression that Fredo and his wife Deanna had ever lived at the Tahoe estate. Having been in Vegas for several years before Michael relocated to Nevada, it's possible he already had a decent place to live and there would be no need to move him to the lake

Util of course, it was time to put a bullet in his head.

Apple

I do. That's why I asked .
Well, they may have had a trust, but it seems pretty clear that Vito gave Michael control of the purse strings. When Connie announces to Michael during Anthony's party that she and Merle are getting married and would like to book a passage on the Queen, she states that she came to Michael because she needs money. Notably, Michael tries to dissuade Connie from her marriage plans, promising to give her a home on the estate in which she will never lack for anything. The implication is unmistakable: Do what I say and the funds will flow. Michael echoes the same sentiments with Fredo: "I've always taken care of you, Fredo," meaning that Michael is the trustee, Fredo and Connie et. al the beneficiaries.

(Incidentally, in a draft of the GF2 script at Internet Movie Script Database , Connie and Merle marry at a Las Vegas chapel against Michael's wishes. While they are enjoying their first class honeymoon accommodations on the Queen Mary, Michael freezes Connie's account and the couple is forced to change to a tiny 3rd class cabin.)
OK, Moe did pull his arm away in anger -- after he used it to hit or shove Fredo in the shoulder .
Where have I heard that before? ... and how many times?

I also got that impression. After the attempt on Michael's life, we see Deanna outside in her nightgown running around, shouting hysterically about dead gunmen outside her window; and there is what looks to be Fredo, in his bathrobe and slippers, trying to rein her in. I assumed from this that their house must be on the grounds; but then again they could have been staying in a guest house at Michael's invitation if they had driven all the way from Vegas (or wherever they were).

Also, in the GF2 draft script at www.imdb.com , when Michael goes to ask his mother about what Vito thought deep in his heart, it describes Michael as walking through the snow to "... the house next to his own. Int. Connie's house - day. This is the house where Mama lives with Connie's children, Connie so rarely is there." (In the final script, it's just called "Mama's house on the compound.") I gather that because Michael didn't approve of her marriage to Merle, Connie and Merle lived elsewhere. They obviously are no longer together at the end of the film, which allows Connie to now move back to the estate.
Yes, wasn't that generous of him? I wonder what Mama was told every Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter when Fredo never showed up for dinner. (I guess if he were in New York or someplace he could always say he couldn't get a flight .)

All this and much of the blathering that follows is correct, but none of it indicates that Michael cut off funds for Fredo once he disowned him in the boathouse. (Unless you can dream up a 'draft script' scene for that).
Connie & Merle's excurstion on 'The Queen' was a fringe extravagance and it makes sense that she would need Michael's help on that. With regards to simple living expenses both she & Fredo would probably have remained very comfortable.

And that's wonderful if you really do care where Fredo lived after being shut out by Michael. Since there's no suggestion whatsoever as to the answer then I suppose you are free to use your imagination.



Apple

Gee, Apple, did you drink a glass of snippy juice before making each of your posts to this thread?

LMAO "snippy juice." Actually it is sour apple cider.

I happen to agree with Apple. Actually I think that even though Michael cut Fredo off from seeing him and being in the same room as him, he still made sure that Fredo was taken care of financially while his mother was still alive, and he had to make sure that Fredo stayed close to home, to keep a close eye on him.


Don Cardi

Don Cardi, while thinking over your post, I find it fits in most thematically with the film, and here's the reason:

Some people may wonder why I should even be curious about such a trivial matter as what Fredo lived on and where he lived after Michael severed ties with him. But, IMO, it has some significance to the common thread that runs through the ending murders of GF2.

As Apple said, Vito probably left a sizeable inheritance to his children. They could have received their respective shares soon after the will was settled; and they would have had more than enough to live on, invest, or spend as they wished. If this were the arrangement, then once Michael "fired" Fredo from his life, Fredo could take his money and move to Canada for all Michael would know.

But this would not be in Michael's best interest. As Don Cardi noted, he would want Fredo close enough to keep an eye on: to make sure he doesn't deliberately or inadvertently put Michael's life at risk again. And the best way to keep Fredo close was to keep him dependent on Michael for regular financial support. This is why I think it's likely that Vito stipulated his children's inheritance be paid out periodically instead of in one lump sum, and that he appointed Michael as the trustee for overseeing this. Maybe living "close to home" was one of the payment conditions, or maybe Michael (via a 3rd party) convinced Fredo that it was.

One of the reasons I often see given as justification for Michael killing Fredo is that, because of the depth of his resentment and/or because of his witlessness, Fredo could put Michael in danger again. But I think this goes against the grain of the ending murders. In contrast to the murders of the rival family heads in GF1, Michael's victims at the end of GF2 are weak and powerless. I think we are meant to see how far Michael has fallen morally because he kills them anyway, even though they pose no threat to him should they live out their natural lives.

Roth is terminally ill and will die in prison. Pentangeli would not dare cross Michael after he witnessed how Michael's reach extends to Sicily and Pentangeli's brother. And I believe that Fredo would not betray Michael again, for several reasons, one of which is the fact that in the interim years that Mama was alive, he committed no further incidents of treachery. One might argue it's because Michael kept a close eye on him; but it then begs the question Why doesn't Michael just continue to keep close watch over him? After all, if Mama lived to be 97, he'd have to do just that.

But of course, if Fredo did have his own inheritance money or independent means and if he did move to another state far from Michael's HQ, then it gives more support to the argument that Michael killed Fredo because he believed Fredo would betray him again. After all, distance makes Michael less in the know about who Fredo is associating with, how much or how little resentment he still might feel, etc. However, I don't think this scenario ties in with the ending theme, which I believe is to show that the ending murders were unnecessary, just as it was unnecessary to sacrifice someone like Rocco in order to kill a toothless rival (Roth) who would soon die in prison anyway.

But no matter where he lived or what he lived off, Fredo still didn't get any respect.