SB:

That chart, while excellent, in no way indicates "made guys."

For instance under Tony Spilotro it lists Frank Rosenthal.

For reasons that should be obvious Rosenthal was never a made guy.

Relating back to your question as to how the Outfit could diminish so rapidly, almost everyone on that chart is dead.

For example, every single person in the top two rows of the chart is dead. Of those heading the charts below, only Lombardo is alive.

I don't recognize all of the lieutenants but all of those I recognize all except Marco D'Amico are dead, and he is not a made guy anyway, I've heard.

I can't read the soldiers names.

i would respond but we were told to stop arguing. if that is your opinion due to the research that you have done then you are well entitled to it.

There's your problem. You seem to be doing mostly "guessing" and not much researching.



Good grief, where to begin? First, for somebody who claims to know a lot about the Outfit, you should know Al Tornabene died in May 2009. And he was never senile. In fact, he was said to be helping to run the Outfit prior to his death.

Second, how is Andriacchi "practically dead?" What does that even mean? He's old? Yes, a lot of mob guys are. Doesn't mean they are inactive or not a factor.

Third, why is Fratto a joke? Care to elaborate on that? And yes, he's currently in jail on the bid-rigging charge. As is Sarno. Nevertheless, there are still a number of top level Outfit guys left.

In addition to John DiFronzo (boss) and Joe Andriacchi (underboss), you have Marco D'Amico (possibly the new consigliere), Peter DiFronzo (heads the Elmwood Park/North Side crew), Joe Cullotta (heads the Grand Avenue/West Side crew), John Matassa (heads the Cicero/Melrose Park crew, and Frank Caruso (heads the 26th St/South Side crew).



Seems all you're doing is exaggerating. Going on hyperbole because you don't have many facts.


"What the trial has made clear is even when they are in prison they continue to exert influence and control," said James Wagner, the head of the Chicago Crime Commission, who investigated the mob for years when he was an FBI agent.

Some say it's naive to suggest that because so many of the reputed mobsters, including those on trial, are old, that the Outfit doesn't have people ready to step in and take over for the old mobsters, referred to as "Mustache Petes."

"They're still there, there's still young guys coming up," said Jack O'Rourke, a retired FBI agent who also spent years investigating the Chicago mob. "And they're still powerful enough to kill guys."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-08-25-1590323796_x.htm



Here's 2. Mike Sarno is 53. Nick Ferriola is 35.



Are you going to just keep saying that or are you actually going to provide some evidence of this claim? Because I can provide quite a long list of Outfit cases over the past decade that say otherwise.



Considering your admitted lack of knowledge on the east coast families, as well as your apparent lack of knowledge on the Outfit, I guess this isn't even worth responding to.



I'm confused. You just got done discrediting the feds estimates but, when you find one that suits your argument, they suddenly have credibility? As I said before, over the past decade the estimates have ranged anywhere from a low of 25 to a high of 60. And even the most conservative 25 member estimate is more than the 10-20 figure you pulled out of thin air.


December 2000 -
While the Outfit once claimed hundreds of inducted, or "made," members, today that figure has dwindled to perhaps 50.
http://www.laborers.org/ChicagoMag_Moblite_12_00.htm

August 2002 -
In the 1980s, the Chicago mob had roughly 200 "made" members, each of whom ran his own various illegal businesses. Today, according to the FBI, the mob is down to about 50 made members.
http://www.ipsn.org/characters/new_outfit.htm

May 2005 -
The FBI estimates that Chicago now only has 25 "made" members and another 75 organized crime associates. Federal authorities said that 15 years ago the mob had 50 "made" members and as many as 400 associates.
http://www.labor-unions.net/newspapers/chicago_tribune/crackdown_just_latest_hit_on_mob.htm

September 2007 -
Robert D. Grant, special agent in charge of the FBI's Chicago office, said the city is still plagued by 28 "made guys" and more than 100 associates who do the dirty work but are in the mob's inner circle.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-27-3043193147_x.htm

September 2007
We have dozens of open investigations,' John Mallul, supervisor of the FBI's organized crime unit in Chicago, said in an interview.....Mallul estimates the Outfit has about 30 'made' members and a little more than 100 associates.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169287805.html

March 2009 -
In addition to the 14 murders, Calabrese confessed to, he told prosecutors about 60 names of made men in the Outfit.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/mob/2009/03/what_the_prosecution_says_abou.html



Actually, the Chicago Crime Commission estimated 70 members back in 1997. Two years later, in 1999, the FBI released a list of 47 made members of the Outfit to the Chicago press.

Check your PM's.

I think they meant as far as the pissing contest between New York and Chicago. Which isn't the same as debating the available facts.

That particular chart was compiled by two posters over on the Real Deal forum. One of them is Scott Bernstein, who was the co-author of "Family Affair," one of the books written on the Family Secrets case. Even though the Outfit started using the traditional making ceremony since at least the 1970's, it's still harder to identify which guys are formally inducted. That chart is rather expansive in terms of who is connected to the Outfit but by no means is most of the names on it dead. Only a few are and they are listed as "deceased."

OMG i cant believe its taken me this long to read this whole thing. Classic. So many fanboys. I remember when i used to follow mobsters for all the wrong reasons.

Its not the 30's 40's or 50's any more. Or even the 60's or 70's.
(No shit Sherlock! i hear you saying) Well my point is the things we all know that some of us choose not to see. Cousin Rico's around now. The braintrust is gone. General attrition & being squeezed out by newer & bigger groups. These are things we all know.

There's nothing wrong with following & researching interests. But so many posters seem to be actively cheering for these guys.
Im i the only one that feels that a mobster, by virtue of being a mobster, deserves all he gets when brought to justice? Mob life revolves around criminal acts (duh) These guys are not cool or honorable. They are murderous douchbags. The only respectable thing about a mobster is one who accepts his punishment for his life of crime.

That being said... again, i vote definitely Genovese. But even they with being the strongest Family, considering how weak they are now compared with decades ago, the American Mafia as a whole is definitely a shambles.

Its the cartels & the Calabrians we need to watch now. That problem will only get worse before it gets better.

So you're essentially bickering over 5-10 guys.

Hey, I'll give them to you. Maybe the Outfit has 30 made guys. I made my estimate because I've read and continue to read nearly all available information on the Outfit and nearly all of the same names pop up. Of course there's guesswork involved: Thus the FBI's estimate of "25-60" ten years ago. And I am clearly not the FBI.

Let's try this: Name me a new mobster identified by the FBI or the press who's name hasn't been circulating since at least the 90s. Even one. Even one single young turk.

Nick Ferriola went to prison for crimes committed in the 90s.

Frank Calabrese suggested vast entropy of the Outfit in the late 90s or early 2000s when he told his son "you could take the whole thing over by taking out seven guys, it's gotten to that point." No doubt that included the DiFronzos, the Marcellos, Sarno, Andriacchi, Tornabae. All ancient except Sarno.

Their main racket is video poker. You may not think that's lame. Most people do. Including Lombardo defense attorney Joe Lopez who after Family Secrets said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Outfit's dead. What is it, 200 poker machines in Cicero?"

Harry Aleman: "It's over. Who's taking bets? Maybe a few Jews on the North Side."

Aside from the allegorical and statistical evidence the Outfit is an archaic entity for a host of sociological reasons that I will get into if you want me to, but they basically include: No Italian neighborhoods, the assimilation of Italian Americans, RICO and progression in crime fighting.

And I don't know which chart you're referring to but on the chart on flickr nearly all of the people who aren't listed as "soldiers" are dead as doornails and have been for decades.

Of course I'm guessing. We all are.

Most of us aren't fans of the mob. I'm certainly no fan, but I must admit I enjoy messing with mob groupies. They're so emotional.

I think you can definitely make a case about the Outfit being the most powerful crime organization in those years.

For many years, from the 1920s to the early 1980s they probably rivaled the Gambino and Genovese families.



That's correct. But if you look closely you see that Rosenthal isn't listed as a "soldier".

That's the Las Vegas crew of Spilotro, and he was the only made guy of that crew as far as I know.

But if you look at all of the other crews you see that those men are in fact listed as "soldiers".

However, I can't verify this really is an FBI chart, but seeing how much attention is paid to details, it looks pretty authentic to me.

Interesting articles. The first one supports the 1983 chart I posted.

But the second one states that they suddenly had 50 made guys in 1990, which is only 7 years later.

Which of these two articles is more reliable? And if they are both true, how do they explain the sudden diminishing of Outfit membership in only 7 years?

And how trustworthy is Nick Calabrese?

Regarding all of the articles cited:

First one: 50 members in 2000.

Second: 50 in 2002.

Third: 25 in 2005.

Fourth: 28 in 2007.

Fifth: 30 in 2007.

Sixth: 60 in 2009.

Everything is fairly consistent except for the Calabrese number. That's pretty compelling and I'd never heard it before. It seems odd that Calabrese identified 60 active made men in 2009 when estimates were significantly lower 5, 10 years ago, but that does appear to be what the article says. However, I am left wondering if something was lost in translation. He started cooperating in 2002 and had been in jail since 97.

He's viewed as extraordinarily reliable.

Would you say he's more reliable than you?

Johnny, I agree that Calabrese is considered highly reliable. We all know the numbers are a moving target with time. I read the Family Secrets book by Cohen, and Calabrese testified that he met guys from other crews during hits that he had never known before. I suspect he knew of heard about made guys from other crews, but it is unlikely he knew every made guy in the Outfit.

I'm not saying I don't believe it, just that I would like to know more about it, that's all. When he said it, context, other stories elaborating on it.

Tony,

That's a great, great book. You're exactly right, often the made guys don't even know the other made guys or guys you would expect them to know from other crews.

Now that all this information has been presented to you, would you be willing to admit you're quite possibly wrong about the 10-20 number?

The only compelling new information presented to me is the Calabrese testimony. Despite reading Family Secrets about three times, I'd never read that stat; I don't think it was in there.

Everything else is essentially in line with what I originally thought.

Sure I could be wrong. I guess it comes down to which statistics you want to believe.

For reasons I've already gone over I'm more inclined to believe the lower end stats from the early-mid 2000s.

Factor in everyone who's gone to jail since then, the very consistent, and drastic, decline of the mob since the 80s, the utter lack of any information on new Chicago mob members, the very minimal mob activity that's been reported on since the 90s, and I think I'm more right than not.

Do you admit I could be right?

Of course you could be right. But then again, a conspiracy nut could be right about Obama being an extra terrestrial being working for The Israelis. Timmy, the six year old Hannah Montana fan could be right about Santa Claus. Now with that being said and taking in consideration everything I know, I think the chances of you, conspiracy nut or Timmy being right are exceptionally slim.

I always found the Outfit interesting in the sense that they don't have nearly as many internal power stuggles, informants, and other stuff that plagues the New York families. I don't know a lot about them nor have I read through this whole back and forth on here, but they've always seemed a little more older and disciplined than (at least 4 of) the NY families and other North East families. They kind of remind me of a smaller version of the Genovese. Strength doesn't always have to lie in numbers, either.

I wonder what their younger ranks are looking like these days. Are they actively making new guys? Young guys? How often do you think guys are even made out there? Their structure is kinda neat too...how they have Crew Captains, then a 'Street Boss' (seems like a Lieutenant) between the Soliders and the Crew Captain

Admittedly, when you have estimates ranging anywhere from 25 to 60 members, that can be confusing. That's why I take other factors into consideration. For one, the ongoing mob activity in Chicago as compared to families in other cities and how many members they have. Detroit, for example, still has about 25 or so total made members left and it doesn't have nearly as much mob activity as Chicago does. More comparable to Chicago's activity are families in New England and Philadelphia, each of which have about 50 members. And Chicago is said to still be stronger than they are. As I said before, because of the Outfits insular nature, we'll probably never be able to identify most of the made guys like we can in other families. But all things considered, I think it's more likely that it still has about 50 members than only half of that.

I'm not sure I'd consider one of the defense attorneys a good source on the current standing of the Outfit. After all, it's his job to make people believe there is nothing going on. And it's not like Aleman is going to talk up the Outfit either. When I get some more time, I'll post Outfit-related cases over the past decade. There might be more going on than you think.

For the record, their main racket remains sports betting. Video poker can be lumped in there, I suppose, because they are both forms of gambling. In any case, the Outfit still brings in millions from its gambling operations.

I think we have a reasonable divergence of opinion.

To answer TT:

The only thing I've ever heard about any new members is Jimmy Marcello was caught on tape before Family Secrets (this is probably early-mid 2000s you can Google it if you are interested) saying he knew some "young guys capable of work" ie murder.

Beyond that I read on a blog that there's a new young boss of the 26 St. Crew since F Calabrese went to prison. I go to that bar he's supposed to be at sometimes and I asked the bartender if he knew him and he said he did.

But I don't think they're going to be getting many good new recruits. The world these guys came from is gone. Please take the following with a grain of salt as it is just my opinion.

In the working class neighborhoods in Chicago even up until the 80s the mob was a relatively common thing. If you were a young man growing up here you knew people, probably, and definitely knew people who knew people. That exists today, to the tiny degree it does, almost exclusively in Bridgeport.

Many of the Chicago guys came from Grand Avenue which is now about as Italian as the Olive Garden.

I can only imagine most Italian young men today would be horrified at the proposition of joining the mob when they can simply go to law school, make more money, and live longer, opportunities that did not exist for the most recent crop of gangsters arrested in Family Secrets.

Yes, that's true about defense attorneys--just as it benefits the FBI and media to exaggerate the profits and membership.

I think we have completely diverged from the original question - which family is strongest now?

IMO, that is clearly the Genovese Family.

The question was not which family was strongest in the 20's, 50' or 70's. That should be a separate thread. Hell, have a separate thread for each decade.

I think the bigger question is who is strongest after the Genovese's? I rank them accordingly:

2) Gambino
3a) Lucchese
3b) Chicago
4) Columbo
5) Bonnano (or is it Massino?)
6) Philly
7a) Toronto / Hamilton
7b) New England / RI / Boston (or whatever)
8) Decavalcante
9) Montreal (or what is left of it that has not already been absorbed by Toronto)

Everywhere else is minor leagues compared to these. I guess I should have started a new thread so the debate can begin.

I assure you it's not known as the Massino family anymore. Jesus man, I can't believe you just did that.

I think the Bonanno family is much more stronger than Chicago. They have at least twice as many members as the Outfit. Even the Colombo's are probably stronger.

And I would even think that the New England family has surpased Chicago in recent years.

And the list is probably more like this
2) Gambino
3) Lucchese
4) Bonanno
5) Colombo
6) don't care
7) don't care
8) don't care
9) don't care
10) i don't give a fuck

I don't know about New England, but the Bonannos are definitely way more powerful than Chicago. The Colombos too, but the gap isn't as big there.

Vin, the Massino crack was for you and I thought it would draw a response. I think the Bonnano's have been one of the more interesting families to watch because of the characters / personalities, clanish nature and infiltration from Pistone.

Massino brought them back, but his flip has got to be the biggest of them all. And it is possible that your Avatar namesake will go the chair for it!