The Outfit didn't even have 250 members at it's peak, let alone today. Regardless of where you live or what you think you know, it's not like you have done some sort of census yourself regarding Outfit membership. You're pulling that 250 number out of thin air. Even the Genovese and Gambino families don't have that many anymore.

Indeed there has been quite a range in the estimates over the past 10 or 15 years. It can be a little confusing when an FBI source in one article will cite 25 members. And another will cite 50 members. The Outfit's membership doesn't seem to be as well covered as the New York families or some others. A few more estimates would include the Chicago Crime Commission, which estimated about 70 members back in 1997. Around 1999 or so, the FBI actually released a list of 47 names to the press that were said to be made Outfit members. And as I have already pointed out, Outfit turncoat Nick Calabrese reportedly identified about 60 made members earlier this decade.

So how do we interpret all this? First, like with estimates of other families, I don't focus too much on any one figure. Rather, I look at them collectively over a given time span and tend to go with the average. Looking at the estimate range over the past decade, one could say the average is about 50. Second, I consider the ongoing mob activity in Chicago, as well as in relation to the estimates and activity of families in other cities.

The Outfit is still recognized as a formally structured, viable organization by law enforcement and there have been more than enough cases over the past decade to show this is the case. There have been at least as much, if not more, mob activity in Chicago as in New England or New Jersey or Philadelphia. And those families still have about 50 members each. So that leads me to believe the current Outfit is probably closer to 50-60 members than 25-30. Heck, what's left of the mob in Detroit still has about 25 members and it has nowhere near the mob activity in Chicago.

There has been a lot of misunderstanding about that. There was a time, decades ago, when non-Italians had more upward mobility in the Chicago family than others. But even then they could never become formally initiated members. Guys like Jake Guzik, Murray Humphries, Gus Alex, and others had a lot of clout. But they weren't Italian and so could never become made. It was also said that even Italian guys who were made into the Outfit didn't go through the blood and fire ceremony like those in other families. This idea has continued on in the minds of many even though it's now outdated.

Over time, the Chicago Outfit became more and more like the other LCN families. They eventually started using the same making ceremony. And no longer will you find any non-Italians in its hierarchy. There are still associates, both Italian and non-Italian, who may oversee certain operations but there are no non-members in the Outfit administration level or the crew boss level. So made guys in Chicago is essentially the same as New York or anywhere else.

One more confusing thing for people can be found in the recent Family Secrets indictment. In there you had some of the defendants who were identified as "made members of the Outfit." Others, however, did not have this distinction but were listed as a "member of the 26th street crew," "member of the Melrose Park crew," etc. It should be noted that just because they were members of a certain Outfit crew, that doesn't necessarily equate to them being formally inducted members of the Chicago mob.

Good post as usual Ivy.

I would just emphasize that as you write in the early days of the Outfit there were a number of members of non-Italian heritage. The Outfit in its origin was not a Mafia Family and so didn't really have the extreme and somewhat nitpicky distinctions as to who was "made" and who was an "associate".

As a whole the Italian element was always dominant and appeared to have the final say but with the exception of Accardo and Ricca you couldn't rise higher than Humphreys. Humphreys occasionally complained about being outvoted by the Italians but also wielded quiet authority over quite a lot of Italian hoodlums ,including people like Rosselli and to a lesser extent Mooney.

The books "The Outfit" and "SuperMob" by Gus Russo are really great histories/exposes of the classic Chicago Outfit and its upperworld enablers.

Hmm nice posts, both of you. I never dived into the history of the Chicago Outfit. This may be a good time to start reading The Outfit
But then again, its quite expensive. 16euros :S

I don't know the conversion rate but US Amazon is selling the Outfit for $15 new. You can get it for less used.. Obviously this has not much to do with what's going on today but I strongly recommend both books.

I cant pay on amazon with paypal, i dont have creditcards. So thats a no go for me, on ebay its expensive to with the cost of shipping.

Why don't you try bol.com

Yeah i tried there, thats the place where it cost 16 euros.

Ivy now I am starting to believe you have no clue what you are talking about. Either that or your one of those people who believes everything they read. If you read something that said jump off a bridge and you will become rich, would you believe it? Same concept applies here. No I have never done a census of made members in the CHicago Outfit. However as I have said before I have been around the Chicago Outfit since I was a kid. When you refer to the Chicago Outfit and their made members, you are referring to anyone that answers to No Nose. That being said, you have to consider thats all the made members in Chicago and also all the made members that have been sent to other places working under Chicago Outfit control. Now that being said that includes but it not limited to Los Angles fraction, Milwaukee faction, Las Vegas faction, Nebraska fraction, Iowa Fraction and San Diego fraction. All the members of these fractions are not made however there is at least a 10% made member ratio for these fractions. Lets just say for easy math reason that in all these fractions there are at least 10 made members. That is 60 made members right there. Now that is more than the 50 you claim they have. You have to stop believing everything you read. I have been at high ranking Outfit member houses when they have had member only meetings. The Chicago Outfit has more than 200 members and is in the vicinity of 250. You are an idiot if you believe anything else. Just out of curiousity how many made members of any organized crime family do you know? I can list at least 70 without even having to think. In total I have meet well over 125 currenct Chicago Outfit made members.

Sure but around 250? That would be massive, they wouldnt answer to New York anymore if they had power like that. And they are in the golden days the way you describe it.

They do not answer to New York.

I am not saying you are wrong Capo. I, frankly, know very little about the Outfit. I am however curious as to why you would advertise spending time at these people's houses while they conduct illegal activity or state figures as to membership. I have come into contact with some in the NYC area, but would never make any claims as to the size of these families, when/where they do business and how they comport themselves around the country. It seems quite unintelligent of you.

These are heavy words that you throw around here. You must appreciate that it's difficult to take at face value someone who says that they know personally lots of mobsters.
Of course, that's fascinating if true, but you have only your internet word to vouch for the fact that there are 250 members.
Having said that, although I am just a comparative rookie compared to guys who know their stuff like IvyLeague, I do happen to think that there are probably more than the oft-quoted 50 made guys in the Outfit.

A) I said I was at there homes while they had member only meetings. Never said what was discussed or if I was even if I know what was discussed at those meetings.
B) I advertised that I knew a bunch of members. As I said before I grew up with a bunch of there kids.
C)Figures to membership-maybe your right there maybe I shouldnt have said where there number is or isnt. Does it matter, none of you believe what I have been telling you anyway.
D) unitelligent of me. Thats a little bit of a strech. I have never used anyone name or said what house(s) I have been at. Never really stated anything other than I grew up with there kids and been to some of there houses. So I would beg to disagree with you on that.
E)Belive what you want. I believe what I know. And was just trying educate the rest of you your the information you were given that was wrong

I've encountered so many people on these forums who claim to have inside knowledge. They know this person or that person. They grew up here or there. It's the easiest way to try and gain instant credibility. But your own posts prove you don't know what you're talking about. Nebraska faction? Iowa faction? Give me a break. If you really believe the Outfit has people, let alone entire factions, in Nebraska or Iowa in this day and age, you are truly lost. The bulk of the modern day Outfit's operations are in and around Chicago within Cook County. And to a lesser extent elsewhere in Illinois, like Rockford and other places. There is no Outfit faction in Milwaukee. And there is likely not any more than a handful of guys left in places like Nevada, Arizona, and California.

You can keep repeating the Outfit has 250 members all you want. Doesn't make it true. And you rattling off 70 names proves nothing. There are plenty of blogs and lists on different forums of that many names associated with the Outfit and more. But there's not proof, beyond what we know, which ones are made guys. And you simply saying this guy or that guy is made proves nothing. Sorry, but I'll go with the average from various official estimates over the past 10-15 years rather than some bogus figure a faceless poster on an internet forum makes up.

Didnt the Milwaukee mafia family answer to Chicago? And they are extinct right now, or did i miss something.

There's always gonna be a bit of doubt when someone says they grew up connected.
Personally, I would maybe even believe you, to be honest; although its nothing like LCN, I have several friends where I live, London, whose family are involved in various illicit pursuits.
Any other information?

Back in the day Milwaukee, like other families west of Chicago, more or less answered to the Outfit. The Milwaukee family, even at it's peak, was always small. There hasn't been a case involving them since the 1980's. They are gone.

There are actually a few posters on some forums who happen to have grown up in a certain area, knew certain people, or at least knew a guy who knew a guy, etc. But none of them would ever claim to be "connected." They simply have some 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand info from what they hear. They never claim to know more than they do. They are valuable for "micro" information, i.e. certain incidents or specifics. But someone who is truly connected probably wouldn't be posting away on an internet forum anyway. Furthermore, anyone who can use Google or follow the New York press can have as good an idea of how things are in general as any local guy.

As for our current "insider," when he claims the Outfit has 5 times as many members as the average official estimate, and talks about there being "factions" in places like Nebraska, that should tell you all you need to know about him.

Maybe he's confused with "associates". I certainly believe Chicago's criminal network has 250 members. That seems very plausible to me.

I always found it intresting when I read a book a while back about Chicago and Sam Giancana how they didnt (at the time) have any type of ceremony or structure there. Giancana apparently said something like "you just knew who was in charge and who was in" and they didnt need to make a big thing of it. If memory serves they also had a lot of dealings with the African American's to do with the number games.

wikipedia page about the chicago outfit says that "The Outfit's membership is moderately estimated to be between 50-200 "made" members comprising a core group with more than 1,000 associates estimated".Is this totally wrong?what's the difference between a "made man" and an "associate"??

p.s. sorry if my english is not good but i'm italian....

Perhaps. By his own definition, apparently anyone who answers to No Nose (i.e. John DiFronzo) is a member. Well, for one, we don't get to make up our own definitions. A made member of the Chicago Outfit is just like a made member in any other family. At least since the 70's, they are a made member if they have gone through the formal initiation ceremony. And the number of those type of guys in the Outfit is likely not above 60 at present. Obviously adding associates would be a much larger number. But we can't try and blur the lines between members and associates just to skew the totals.

Yeah, for a long time the Outfit seemed to have forgone the traditional making ceremony. However, as I mentioned above, that apparently changed at least by the 1970's. Outfit turncoat Nick Calabrese talked about when he got made. And his brother, Frank Calabrese, was caught on tape talking about burning the saint card, etc.

As for the numbers racket, the Outfit - under Giancana - saw how much money potential there was and quickly moved to take them over in the black areas in the 1940's. Some black operators, such as Teddy Roe, put up a pretty good fight. But they didn't have the resources to stand up to the mob at that time.

Wikipedia is often one of the worst sources for information on organized crime. Anyone can just come and make up whatever they want. Sometimes Wiki articles are useful if they cite sources and have working links to them. But otherwise don't bother.

No that is not what I said you idiot. I said any made member who answers (reports) to No Nose is considered part of the Chicago Outfit. That being said I sit by with the number I cited. I was not using known associates or anything of that nature. I was considering only made men. I told you once I really do not care what you want to believe or if you believe all the stupid shit the FBI wants you to believe. I know what I have seen and what is there.You are a sadly mistaken person if you believe or want to believe that the Chicago Outfit made member count is only 60.

Defintely. Wikipedia is really "the last source" you should consider.

Apparantly, wikipedians, as they are called, aren't really interested in organized crime. That's why they usually don't have their "watchdogs" overseeing those articles.

Just try and read some of those articles about crime families. You will find a lot of bad grammar and unreliable or outdated sources.

I'm really curious about the Nebraska faction. How many members are in that faction may I ask? What are they involved in?

Although I'm not a expert of the Outfit, it think it would be only a handful if not less.