GangsterBB.NET


Funko Pop! Movies:
The Godfather 50th Anniversary Collectors Set -
3 Figure Set: Michael, Vito, Sonny

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 61 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Site Links
>Help Page
>More Smilies
>GBB on Facebook
>Job Saver

>Godfather Website
>Scarface Website
>Mario Puzo Website
NEW!
Active Member Birthdays
No birthdays today
Newest Members
TheGhost, Pumpkin, RussianCriminalWorld, JohnnyTheBat, Havana
10349 Registered Users
Top Posters(All Time)
Irishman12 67,618
DE NIRO 44,945
J Geoff 31,285
Hollander 24,148
pizzaboy 23,296
SC 22,902
Turnbull 19,518
Mignon 19,066
Don Cardi 18,238
Sicilian Babe 17,300
plawrence 15,058
Forum Statistics
Forums21
Topics42,387
Posts1,059,797
Members10,349
Most Online796
Jan 21st, 2020
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Roth Took Business Personally #562575
12/17/09 04:15 PM
12/17/09 04:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
When Michael asks Roth who gave the order to Kill Pentangeli, Roth gives his famous "someone put a bullet in his eye" about Mor Green. Obviously he knows Michael gave "the order," but then Roth who'd been praising Green for having "invented" Las Vegas says he didn't do anything about it because "this is the business we have chosen. Clearly, however he took this personally and held a personal vendetta against Michael for it,
DESPITE the fact that Green's assassination was strictly business. In GFI when Michael tells Green he wants to buy him out, he points out that Roth's casino was losing money. Green defensively asks whether Michael thinks he is skimming off the top (assuming Green was to Bugsy Siegel what Roth was to Meyer Lansky he was skimming). Michael says no, "you're just unlucky." Green then gets really angry saying how he took Freddie in when the Corleones were having a bad time and now that they are being chased out of New York they try to move him out. Michael corrects him and reminds him that he took Fredo in because "the Corleone family bankrolled your casino, and the Molinari family on the coast guaranteed hs safety.
If the Corleones actually bankrolled Green and he was losing money for whatever reason it would be bad business to let him continue. Moreover, Green goes on to imply that because he "tawlked" to Barzini, he could make a deal with him and still keep his hotel. In other words it would either be the Corleones or Barzini who would eventually control Green, and whatever Barzini promised, I guarantee if Green continued to lose money, Barzini would have moved him out as well. Bottom line therefore is that this was an extension of the war between the Corleones and Barzini and the other families, and had nothing to do with Hyman Roth. In fact according to Johnny Ola the one reason Roth survived as long as he did was because he always made money for his partners. If you follow that line of reasoning even Roth would not have backed Green if he was losing money for his partners.

Even though Roth admits the killing of Green was "bsiness," it is very clear his bad feelings for Michae were not about business, but strictly personal.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: dontomasso] #562576
12/17/09 04:19 PM
12/17/09 04:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
Even though Roth admits the killing of Green was "bsiness," it is very clear his bad feelings for Michae were not about business, but strictly personal.


And that is what made him a great gangster. Just like Vito Corleone (and later, Michael) they all took everything personal.


.
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: SC] #562577
12/17/09 04:23 PM
12/17/09 04:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: SC
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
Even though Roth admits the killing of Green was "bsiness," it is very clear his bad feelings for Michae were not about business, but strictly personal.


And that is what made him a great gangster. Just like Vito Corleone (and later, Michael) they all took everything personal.


In the novel they aadmit this, but on screen they never do.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: dontomasso] #562578
12/17/09 04:27 PM
12/17/09 04:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Just goes to prove that you can't believe everything you see on the screen. wink


.
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: SC] #562580
12/17/09 04:55 PM
12/17/09 04:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
V
VitoC Offline
Capo
VitoC  Offline
V
Capo
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
Roth always struck me as an extremely egotistical person--probably the most egotistical figure in the trilogy. In Part II, he's always talking about how wonderful their (his and supposedly Michael's) Cuban operations and investments are: "These are wonderful things that we've achieved..." as though they're a bunch of altruistic humanitarians. He seems to love to hear himself talk--like many politicians. Although Vito demanded respect (as we see in the first scene with Bonasera), he didn't have a need to constantly reiterate how great he was. He knew who he was, was happy with it, and that was enough.

Although I have to admit that Roth's joke right before he was killed--"I came home to vote in the presidential election because they wouldn't give me an absentee ballot"--was pretty funny. Making a joke like that isn't a bad way to end your life.


Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: dontomasso] #562581
12/17/09 05:06 PM
12/17/09 05:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
V
VitoC Offline
Capo
VitoC  Offline
V
Capo
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
Clearly, however he took this personally and held a personal vendetta against Michael for it, DESPITE the fact that Green's assassination was strictly business.


The circumstances of Greene's death in the book and the movie are somewhat different. In the movie, Greene is only killed when Barzini and the others are. I've always thought that Greene made a critical mistake in the movie version when he told Michael that "I tocked to Barzini. I can make the deal with him and still keep my hotel." Because of this remark, when Michael learns from Vito that Barzini and the other heads of the Five Families will try to kill him, he has reason to believe that Greene is in on this and that part of "the deal" is Michael being dead. Therefore, he has reason to consider Greene himself a deadly enemy who should be eliminated along with the others--after all, Greene was (in the novel) said to have been a member of the assassination squad "Murder Inc." He was hardly a slouch himself when it came to violence.


Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: VitoC] #562582
12/17/09 05:19 PM
12/17/09 05:19 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
Underboss
The Last Woltz  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
What Roth actually says is that Moe's killing "had nothing to do with business," which is somewhat different than saying it was business, not personal. Far from denying personal feelings, he is saying that he has (and Michael should) put personal feeling aside because they don't have anything to do with business.

Actually, Roth has plenty of business-related reasons - in addition to personal ones - for killing Michael. Michael had plenty of business-related reasons - in additional to personal ones - for killing Moe. It's hard to discern how much of each factored into the decision-making process.

I totally agree that it's all personal. The "strictly business" mantra is laughable. They choose their business, at least in part, because they're ready and willing - perhaps eager - to kill people. Like John Cusack's assassin in "Grosse Point Plank" - he keeps telling his victims "it's not me" but, as the movie goes on, it becomes more and more clear that killing is his career choice largely because of his personal background.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: The Last Woltz] #562613
12/18/09 06:28 AM
12/18/09 06:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
I think that Roth definitely took Green's killing personally but he would have been willing to "let it go" were it not for the fact that Michael was now moving in on Roth's business. That must have brought up all sorts of negative feelings.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Lilo] #562638
12/18/09 12:41 PM
12/18/09 12:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
So what does Tessio mean when he says "tell Mikey it was only business. I always liked him?"


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: dontomasso] #562641
12/18/09 01:13 PM
12/18/09 01:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
So what does Tessio mean when he says "tell Mikey it was only business. I always liked him?"


Tessio made a mistake in judgement. He had no personal animus towards Michael.
From Tessio's (limited) POV it appeared that Michael was requiring Tessio to take a dangerously weak position towards Barzini's incursions-a position that could only end with Tessio eliminated by Barzini, Tessio forced to accomodate and submit to Barzini or Tessio hounded out of the business completely by Barzini. Tessio made a business decision that now was the right time to jump ship to a "winning team" but it wasn't because he was jealous of Michael or disliked Michael... although he would have overseen his murder... whistle


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Lilo] #562645
12/18/09 03:08 PM
12/18/09 03:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,518
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,518
AZ
There's no doubt that Roth took Moe Green's murder personally. But I think the "nothing to do with business" rap was a clever tactical move on Roth's part:

He and Michael were at the nub end of their duel, and probably knew that the other figured out their motivations. Michael knew that only the promise of the $2 million was keeping him alive in Havana, and Roth knew that he'd have to move against Michael, with or without the money, before dawn on New Year's Day. Roth saw Michael's reluctance about the money and was steadily pushing him into a corner, almost implying he was cowardly because he had doubts about the rebels. He reduced Michael to saying, "Uh, I just wanna wait..." Michael looked weak, and he knew he couldn't forever stall Roth.

So, I see Michael's indignant, "Who had Frank Pentangeli killed" snarl as an attempt on his part to regain the "moral high ground"--push back at Roth by adding Pentangeli's killing to the reasons he wasn't coming across with the $2 million. And Roth, sensing it, brilliantly put Michael in his place with the "...nothing to do with business" rap. He'd regained the "fatherly high ground."

However much Roth "loved and trusted" Green, he could not justify risking his own life or reputation to defend Moe, who, after all, was losing money in a business that was engineered to make money hand over fist. He might have recognized that Moe's boast, "I tawk to Barzini...I can make a deal with him and still keep my hotel," would represent a mortal and overriding threat to Michael. And Roth was in no position to thwart Michael's ambition to become Numero Uno in Nevada--except by killing Michael. That was business. From his viewpoint, it'd be better to have Michael pushing at him in Nevada than Barzini for two reasons. First, he had a sentimental family connection with Michael through his long association with Vito that he thought he could play to his advantage. Second, he saw Michael's lust for "legitimacy" as an Achilles' heel that he could use to keep stringing him along until an opportunity presented itself to kill Michael. Neither applied to Barzini. So, Michael was the lesser of two evils--or so he thought.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Lilo] #562685
12/19/09 12:09 PM
12/19/09 12:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
Caporegime
Don Cardi  Offline
Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Originally Posted By: Lilo
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
So what does Tessio mean when he says "tell Mikey it was only business. I always liked him?"


Tessio made a mistake in judgement. He had no personal animus towards Michael.
From Tessio's (limited) POV it appeared that Michael was requiring Tessio to take a dangerously weak position towards Barzini's incursions-a position that could only end with Tessio eliminated by Barzini, Tessio forced to accomodate and submit to Barzini or Tessio hounded out of the business completely by Barzini. Tessio made a business decision that now was the right time to jump ship to a "winning team" but it wasn't because he was jealous of Michael or disliked Michael... although he would have overseen his murder... whistle


Michael sums it up perfectly when he tells Tom

"....it was the smart move, Tessio was always smarter."

I believe that Tessio played the odds. I don't believe that Tessio's decision was based on any jealousy or dislike for Mike. I believe that it indeed was strictly a business decision on his part.

As for Roth I think that he took the murder of his best friend, his childhood friend, very personally. However he didn't allow his personal feelings to cloud his judgement.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Don Cardi] #567997
02/24/10 07:28 AM
02/24/10 07:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 76
Georgia, USA
D
DonRobertoCorleone Offline
Button
DonRobertoCorleone  Offline
D
Button
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 76
Georgia, USA
I didn't remember reading in the novel that Moe Greene was part of the Murder Inc hit squad.


DonRobertoCorleone
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: DonRobertoCorleone] #567999
02/24/10 10:41 AM
02/24/10 10:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Originally Posted By: DonRobertoCorleone
I didn't remember reading in the novel that Moe Greene was part of the Murder Inc hit squad.


It's in there. There's a line that goes something like "Moe Greene was a handsome hood who had made his reputation as a Murder Inc. killer in Brooklyn. He still occasionally had terrible tantrums and Fredo, Jules and Lucy did their best to stay out of his way". It's in the part where Michael is waiting for Moe.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Lilo] #568281
03/02/10 05:40 AM
03/02/10 05:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6
R
Roths_Football_Boots Offline
Associate
Roths_Football_Boots  Offline
R
Associate
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6

In regards of having a Ego, if that is the case why did he have just a little modest house in Miami with no guards?

Were they about in the area?

Was this house a little "safe house" he'd retreat to at the weekend to get away from the "office"?

Always thought it a bit weird a big shot like Roth living like this.

Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Roths_Football_Boots] #568282
03/02/10 06:07 AM
03/02/10 06:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Originally Posted By: Roths_Football_Boots

In regards of having a Ego, if that is the case why did he have just a little modest house in Miami with no guards?

Were they about in the area?

Was this house a little "safe house" he'd retreat to at the weekend to get away from the "office"?

Always thought it a bit weird a big shot like Roth living like this.



Welcome to the boards.

Well Roth was based on Lansky who really did live rather modestly in Miami. I think it was a condo rather than a flat but low profile was the essence of Roth (and Lansky).

When you look at a lot of the mobsters who went the opposite route and lived it up, they attracted unwanted attention from rivals, neighbors, law enforcement and especially the IRS.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Lilo] #568284
03/02/10 06:33 AM
03/02/10 06:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6
R
Roths_Football_Boots Offline
Associate
Roths_Football_Boots  Offline
R
Associate
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6

Oh I see, pretty much like Frank Lucas in American Gangster.

So they (Roth/Lansky) would literally have no men or bodyguards around?! Im not sure I would take that risk smile

You think his young lady would have any idea?

Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Roths_Football_Boots] #568289
03/02/10 08:54 AM
03/02/10 08:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
There is some disagreement as to how large of an organization that Roth or his inspiration Lansky had by the fifties or sixties.

That aside both the fictional character and his real life analogue had quite wisely made themselves pretty essential to most of the important people in organized crime. In real life there weren't a lot of people that would see a profit in knocking off Lansky. So traveling around with a lot of goons/bodyguards wasn't necessary-particularly when if need be he could use Cuban police or US Cuban exiles for that purpose. Also Roth had Johnny Ola (as Lansky had Vincent Alo)...

I'm sure Roth's wife knew he was a "businessman".


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Lilo] #571751
04/13/10 12:44 PM
04/13/10 12:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 102
New York
L
Louren_Lampone Offline
Made Member
Louren_Lampone  Offline
L
Made Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 102
New York
Originally Posted By: Lilo
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
So what does Tessio mean when he says "tell Mikey it was only business. I always liked him?"


Tessio made a mistake in judgement. He had no personal animus towards Michael.
From Tessio's (limited) POV it appeared that Michael was requiring Tessio to take a dangerously weak position towards Barzini's incursions-a position that could only end with Tessio eliminated by Barzini, Tessio forced to accomodate and submit to Barzini or Tessio hounded out of the business completely by Barzini. Tessio made a business decision that now was the right time to jump ship to a "winning team" but it wasn't because he was jealous of Michael or disliked Michael... although he would have overseen his murder... whistle


Great point. Didn't Michael continue to employ this type of manipulation throughout the trilogy? Have subordinates put their head in the Lion's mouth in exchange for having them appear loyal? I like how Michael


"Now, that plane goes to Miami."
"That's right. That's where I want it met."
Re: Roth Took Business Personally [Re: Louren_Lampone] #571768
04/13/10 04:15 PM
04/13/10 04:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Originally Posted By: Louren_Lampone
Didn't Michael continue to employ this type of manipulation throughout the trilogy? Have subordinates put their head in the Lion's mouth in exchange for having them appear loyal?


Yup. It goes on throughout the trilogy. Michael did that to just about everyone-Clemenza, Tessio, Tom, Frankie, Rocco. I really think of Michael as a fallen angel. And like a fallen angel he can still be quite charming and persuasive when he wants to be.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

Moderated by  Don Cardi, J Geoff, SC, Turnbull 

Powered by UBB.threads™