I wonder how Vito has guessed, that anyone who comes from Barzini with an offer to talk will be a traitor? It was Tessio...how could he be traitor...maybe he just announced Barzini's proposal. Guys, make it clear! Does it mean, that anyone who comes with an offer from my enemy IS my enemy too????

Question about Tessio multiple choice
	Was he a traitor?
	Why?
Votes accepted starting: 12/31/69 08:00 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

I don't think this is the purpose of a poll...

About your question: I know the answer, but there are other people on this boards who can explain this in a far more clear, correct, and complicated way. Turnbull, turn on your PC!

Hi Louigie. Nice to meet you.

Unfortunately, your poll has a set-up error in it that prevents us from voting. I'll explain what happened and the proper correction.

In a poll, you ask a question, then you list a choice of several answers. The voter then picks the answer he or she believes is correct by clicking on the little box beside it.

In your poll: (1) You didn't ask a question. Your poll has a title "Question about Tessio," but it doesn't tell us what the question is. (2) You didn't list possible answers. Instead, you listed questions next to the little check boxes.

This means that the results of your poll will end up looking something like this:
-------------------------------------------------
Poll: Question about Tessio
5 people voted "Was he a Traitor?"
5 people voted "Why?"
-------------------------------------------------

... which, of course, doesn't tell us anything.

The correct way to set it up would be as follows:

Poll: Was Tessio a Traitor? --> this is your question
[ ] Yes
[ ] No ---> the Yes and the No are the possible answers

People will tell you why they voted the way they did by posting their comments to this thread (which is something every poll allows).

I think you can delete this poll (since you're the topic starter) and then start a corrected one -- but the administrator / moderator can correct me on that if I'm wrong.
_______________________

As for the topic of your poll -- was Tessio a traitor? -- you might want to reconsider asking that and instead pose a different question relating to the topic of traitors... and I'll tell you my reasons for suggesting that in my next post, so as to keep this one from getting too long and boring.

I like the second option. My vote went for it

Louigie,

Tessio was the smarter one, it was the smart move. Watch the movie again. After Don Vito makes the peace, to get Mike home, the Corleone's are looked upon as a dying and weak family. They've just given in to the demands of the families. Something that Vito would have never done in the past.

When Michael is in charge, we see him telling Tessio and Clemenza to be patient and trust him. They are complaining that Barzini and the other families are muscling in on their territories, and that Michael is not doing anything about it. When Michael does not give them the answer they are looking for, they immedeatly turn to Vito and begin to plead their case again. What does Vito tell them? He tells them to listen to Michael and be a freind to him. Clemenza being the loyal soldier, complies. However Tessio took Michael's inactions against the other families as a sign of weekness, and thought that under Michael, the Corleone's were no longer the power that they once were, as when they were under Vito. But this is EXACTLY what Michael and Vito wanted everyone to think. It was their way to buy some more time and quietly rebuild and strengthen the Corleone family.

But Tessio fell for the dead possum ploy himself. So Tessio, playing the odds and not knowing what Vito and Michael were secretly planning, went to Barzini to make a deal. A deal that he thought would help him survive once Vito was gone and Barzini made his move against Michael.

His own addmission of guilt is when Michael has killed the heads of the families, and the scene turns to Tessio getting ready to take Michael to Brooklyn for the meeting. Willie Cicci cuts him off and tells both him and Hagen that the boss, Michael, has changed the plans and will now go in a different car. And How does Tessio react? 'He can't do that, it screws up all my arrangements!" By Tessio reacting that way and with those words, he has just admitted that he turned traitor, and after looking at Hagen and thinking about what he just said, he asks Hagen to get him off the hook, for old times sake. An admission of guilt for the second time.

"Tell Mike it was business, I always liked him."

Vito, being the smart and cunning man that he was, knew that if he and Michael were to make the Corleones look weak, that once he died, Barzini and the other families would look to finish off The Corleones. And Vito knew that in order for Barzini and company to get Michael out of the way, they had to wait for Vito to die, and then would have to have someone from within the Corleone family, someone that Michael could trust, turn traitor and set Michael up to be killed.


Don Cardi

Don't forget, when Clemenza and Tessio left after that meeting it was Clemenza who stormed out without recognizing Michael. It was Tessio who shook Michael's hand and said "Alright"! Vito asked for Clemenza'a loyalty not Tessio's.

I thought that Tessio was the one who stormed out and that Clemenza didn't. Have to watch that scene again.


DS

Don Cardi, I know the way it was and I also understand the question Louigie makes.

It was not the case, but if Emilio Barzini would really had wanted to have a peaceful meeting(no betrayals or attempts of killing)and Tessio would have remained loyal to Michael, what should he had to do to send Michael the word he wanted to meet him and to avoid Michael kills Tessio by mistake in case he would not have done the deal?

CLEMENZA: And I hate that goddamn Barzini! In six months' time there won't be nothing left to build on...
VITO CORLEONE: Do you have faith in my judgment?
CLEMENZA: Yes...
VITO CORLEONE: Do I have your loyalty?
CLEMENZA: Yes- always, Godfather...
VITO CORLEONE: Then be a friend to Michael, and do as he says.
MICHAEL: There are things being negotiated now that are gonna solve all your problems and answer all your questions. That's all I can tell you now... Carlo, you grew up in Nevada. When we make our move there, you're gonna be my right-hand man. Tom Hagen's no longer Consiglieri -- He's gonna be our lawyer in Vegas. That's no reflection on Tom, but that's the way I want it. Besides -- if I ever need help, who's a better Consiglieri than my father? Well, that's it.
[Rocco opens the door to let everyone leave. Clemenza walks past Michael, shakes Don Vito's hand, and exits]
Tessio (shaking Michael's hand): Alright...

What a good post, DC!
I think I posted something to a similiar effect in this thread: Why keep Tom out?

Good analysis DC, but I have a slightly different take on the "It'll mess up all my arrangements" scene. Michael and Tom know that Tessio is the traitor at the time of the funeral, so it is clear that Clemenza was brought in on the information (which is why Willie Cicci was there) and a plan was made to take Tessio our "for a ride." When they first tell Tessio that the plans are changed, he reacts angrily saying it would mess up his arrangements (no kidding!) but then Tom says "I can't go either." I think at that point Tessio realizes that the jig is up and that he's been caught. It is then when he becomes subdued and asks Tom if he can get him off the hook for old times' sake, and makes the comment that he always liked Michael and it wasn't personal.

As Don Cardi, dontomasso, et. al, skillfully explained, there is no doubt in the movie that Tessio is indeed the traitor because he admits to this as soon as he finds himself surrounded by Michael's button men. It is rather subtle; and I can understand that someone might miss it at first, as I believe to be the case with Louigie. After all, there are so many fascinating characters, plot twists, and interrelationships in the movie that it can take several viewings to absorb everything.

Nevertheless, the admission is there. When Tessio states, "Tell Michael it was strictly business. I always liked him," it is his laconic way of confessing, "Yes, I was going to deliver Michael up to Barzini to be killed; but that was only so I could be allowed to join Barzini's family, whom I believe will soon dominate and push out the Corleones. It was nothing against Michael personally; I just wanted to protect my own (mob) business interests."
_______________________________________________

So getting back to how this affects Louigie's poll:
Louigie, if your question is "Was Tessio really a traitor?" everyone would vote "yes" (or should vote "yes" ) because it is a fact established in the film. It would be like asking "Does Michael have dark hair in GF I and II?" Again, all votes would be "yes" because we see that Michael does indeed have dark hair in those films. It is unambiguous. There can be no other answer.

A poll is more interesting when it concerns something that is more ambiguous and is not directly answered by the movie -- where the answers are a matter of opinion and are debatable. An example of such a question would be "Who did Michael love more, Apollonia or Kay?" The movie doesn't tell us this, so people would be voting on -- and giving their opinions on -- what they think is the right answer.

In fact, Louigie, in your opening post you pose an intriguing question on the topic of traitors which I think would be an even better subject for a poll. To paraphrase: "If I am the Don, is anyone who comes to me with an offer from my enemy then my enemy too?" I too have wondered how Vito knew so certainly that the one who approaches Michael to arrange a meeting with Barzini would be the traitor.

Or, as Don Pappo Napolitano put it (and I paraphrase), "If a rival family (i.e., Barzini) wanted a legitimate peace-making meeting, how would it have to be arranged so as not to arouse suspicion of treachery?"

So, Louigie, you don't have to post another poll (though you can if you want to). I think fellow members, with their love of debating , will be glad to discuss those two questions right here in this thread.

All this stuff about "How did Vito know that whoever approached Michael was a traitor" is a lot of hogwash, I believe.

I think it was simply a device inserted by FFC and Puzo to demonstrate the all-encompassing wisdom and cunning of Don Corleone.

For in reality, had Barzini truly wished to set up a meeting with Michael - a meeting truly designed to make peace and at which there would be no treacherous acts - what better way would there be for him to do it than to approach Michael through someone he trusted.

Suppose Barzini had truly wished to make peace, so he or his Consigliere approaches Tom Hagen to set up the meeting.

Whether or not Hagen suspected Barzini of treachery, he certainly would have brought the proposal to Michael, as would anyone of Michael's people have done had they been approached by Barzini.

It makes no sense whatsoever for Don Corleone to automatically assume that the messenger is also a traitor.

Although we learn through Tessio's confession that he was, in fact, a traitor, it's certainly reasonable to think that Barzini could have been setting up Michael's assassination at the meeting without the knowledge or complicity of Tessio.

To quote you ; "Hogwash"


If your theory holds true, then why does Tessio say " It screws up all my arrangements?" and " Tell Mike I always liked him?"

If Tessio was not a part of the plot to set up and kill Mike, then he would have never uttered those two lines.

And I believe that it was Tessio who approcahed Barzini, and not the other way around.


Don Cardi

I didn't write that too clearly, I'm afraid.

What I meant was that Barzini certainly could have set up an assassination plot without Tessio's knowledge or complicity, merely using Tessio (or anyone else for that matter) as a messenger.

He didn't need Tessio to do it, although his plot obviously inlcuded him and presumbly facilitated things a bit.

BTW, where did you get the idea that was Tessio who approached Barzini, rather than the other way around?

I don't remember if it was in the book or movie, but doesn't Vito say something to Michael to the effect that Barzini won't approach someone like Carlo because Carlo wasn't close enough, nor would he approach Tom hage, because Tom was too close, thus implying that Barzini would be the "Approacher"?

That may have very well been in the book Plaw, I don't really remember. But I trust your word as I know that you are pretty knowledgable when it comes to the novel.

However, from the movie point of view, we see a disgruntled Tessio, not very happy with the way things were going. So I don't think that it would be unreasonable to assume that Tessio may have went to The Barzinis and let him know that he was not too happy with Michael in charge and that he was willing to switch sides.

From watching the movie, I've always felt that it was Tessio who went to The Barzinis looking for a deal.


Don Cardi

It's equally plausible that being the cunning and shrewd Don that he was, Barzini learned of Tessio's dissatisfaction with Michael, and felt that he would be the inner circle member most receptive to his plan.

Here's the passage from the book to which I referred earlier (This is not the way it was written in the novel; I changed it to a "script' format for simplicity)

Tom: How do you think they'll come at you?

Mike: The Don instructed me. Through somebody close. Barzini will set me up through somebody close that, supposedly, I won't suspect.

Tom: Somebody like me.

Mike: You're Irish. They won't trust you.

Tom: I'm German American.

Mike: To them that's Irish. They won't go to you and they won't go to Neri because Neri was a cop. Plus both of you are too close. They can't take that gamble. Rocco Lampone isn't close enough. No, it will be Clemenza, Tessio, or Carlo Rizzi.

Tom: I'm betting it's Carlo.

Mike: We'll see. It won't be long.

If Barzini had truly wanted to make the peace, wouldn't he have hired the Boccichio's (sorry, PL, oh spelling czar, I don't feel like looking it up)? Instead, he only had Tessio guarantee his safety. If I had been Michael, that alone would've made me suspiscious. Tessio had made his unhappiness very plain in the meeting with Vito and Michael, so wouldn't Michael have wondered, even if he had not been forewarned by his father??

He certainly might have wondered about anyone who came to him with the idea of a meeting with Barzini.

But he was certain he was being set up. He had Tessio's last ride all planned.

There's no way he could have, or should have, been so sure.

Very good points there. It never occurred to me before that Barzini didn't NEED Tessio -- or anyone in the Corleone family -- to turn traitor in order to kill Michael at this pre-arranged meeting. Barzini and his men are the only ones who need to know that a hit is in the offing. All Michael has to do is show up, and it doesn't matter if he's brought there by a wily traitor who knows what's going on or by a loyal friend who is just as unsuspecting as Michael.

Vito's prediction about how the traitor will reveal himself often had me stymied. Like, plaw, I wondered why the messenger automatically had to be the betrayer. (Well, plaw didn't have to wonder, he knew it was "hogwash." ) Now it's clearer to me since plaw has brought up dramatic device. I can certainly see that. Tessio is made to be a traitor to add suspense to the proceedings, and that prediction is a necessary catalyst for that part of the story line.

I was also thinking that Vito's prediction could have been pure intuition -- a foreboding of his son's imminent danger, his senses sharpened to threats against Michael's safety. Also, perhaps he recalled a past experience in which he witnessed a similar betrayal in such circumstances.

Here's my take on this.....

Barzini does need Tessio's cooperation on the hit because the meeting is taking place on Tessio's ground. It doesn't do Barzini much good to kill Michael at the meeting if he himself is killed in retaliation.

What Vito was warning Michael against was not simply an offer from the other side to negoiate, but an offer that was all wrapped up in pretty paper with a big bow on top. If Tessio had simply approached Michael & said "Barzini wants a meeting. What do you want to do?", it would have left the security arrangement itself subject to negotiation & not implicated Tessio as being part of the conspiracy.

Barzini & Tessio were counting on Michael's youth, inexperience, & perceived weakness to make him jump at the chance to simply survive.

Well, no, he may be just a herald as well as he can be a traitor... Never know, wath you have to do is to observe closely! Keep him close to you! Make him sware loyalty over and over again!
Your enemies, Pal, arent the ones that show their face to you... but the ones that stand in the back and swares to be faithfull to you.

I think Vito's ability here to warn Michael about the set-up, is that he knows the level of thinking of the dudes left behind... in a way, he doesn't over estimate them... it's the natural progession of things that when the old dies... the vultures are going to fight over what's left... like Tom speculated earlier on, that if Vito died, they'd automatically lose half their strength... the influence of Vito isn't like stock shares that automatically can be passed on as an inheiritance... Vito (and Michael) would know this would happen when Vito dies.

Anybody who would approach Michael with a deal from Barzini is a traitor because it is implicit acknowledgment that the landscape is changing... and quite likely Tesio could have approached Barzini first to stake out power in his future... Tesio would himself be thinking that Corleones didn't just look weak - they were wak to his thinking...

But here's a thought, IF, they had been successful in offing Michael, wouldn't Barzini whack Tesio too because he would that ultimately Tesio couldn't be trusted... ????

Interesting theory, and it makes a great deal of sense..

Vito was quite possibly cunning enough to realize that Barzini perceived himself as the stronger of the two, and, accordingly, never would be the one to seek the peace.

As the stronger of the two, he would have waited for Michael to come to him for a deal, at which time he'd be able to negotiate from a position of strength rather than weakness.

So Vito figured that out, and realized that if someone (even Barzini himself, or an emissary of Barzini's other than a Tessio or Clemenza) approached Michael rather than the other way around, there had to be treachery involved at some level.

Just thinking about Tessio - wasn't it his men who were supposed to be guarding Vito at the hospital? We know the line is that the police had them cleared out - but maybe Tessio was a traitor for a much longer period of time than we think?

It's an interesting and fair question. However I would think that number 1, the Corleones would have seen right through that, number 2; those in the police dept. on the payroll of the Corleones would have tipped them off, and number 3; at that time Tessio would have absolutely no reason to turn on The Corleones. His decision to turn, in my opinion, came later on when he felt that he was being stepped all over by Barzini's people and Mike would not do anything about it. His decision to turn came out of his feeling that the Corleone's were not the power that they used to be, that once Mike took full control, they would be finished. He made that decision to turn on The Corleones out of sheer instinct to survive. "Strictly business," nothing more.


Don Cardi

Let me show you how I think about this. Let us say there is this business. The olive oil business. Owned by an older man, Don Vito and his hothead kid. Below them are two long term employees or lets say general managers. As long as the old man is alive they follow the ways of the land. They even listen to the bosses kid as he has been working along side the old man for some time. And in life you always see sons take over their fathers business. It is a normal thing.
All of a sudden the boss gets hurt and a short time later the bosses kid gets killed. In the normal business work you would think that one or both of the long term or general managers would get a shot and move on up to sit in the big sit while things work out.
No instead they allow a young punk that never was involved in the olive oil business and they want to insert him into the top spot. In the normal business world you could understand that the two long term/general managers would be upset. Of course they have to wonder what future there is with this kind of leadership. They aren't getting any younger you know and we are talking about life or death business in this case. So I thought it was only natural to see one or both make the move.


My second point. People say that Tessio went over to Barzini to make a deal. When Luca was sent over by Don Vito to make them think that we wanted to change sides, they played him along then killed him. How come they didn't think the same way when Tessio came a calling? Also please remember that if Tessio changes sides, on what they think is a weak Corleone family as it was, they have cut the Corleone family very deep.
Then they are cut down to almost nothing with Don Vito being dead and one half of the men gone. Who knows even that "Fat Clemenza" may have seen the writing on the wall and after some talking with Tessio, he may have went along with Tessio rather then getting overrun. I know he didn't like Barzini, and would be going further down the food chain, but it would be better then being dead.

Thoughts?

Karl

I think Luca going over was too obvious with the timing of the Solozzo meeting, and that in the book there's a bit more background about the relationship between Vito and Luca that would have made Luca turning not very likely.... I think that was part of what Solozzo meant when he said to Tom, "In all due respect, the Don's been slipping... ten years ago could I have got to him?"

Having said that, how did Tessio convince Barzini of his genuine want to turn? Good question - could have been the timing of Vito being dead that made it more convincing with the factors you cite about the punk son taking over...

I think that Barzini trusted Tessio because Tessio was giving him something in return to prove his intentions: Michael. He offered to deliver Michael to the pseudo-peacemaking meeting so Barzini could kill him.

Luca went to Tattaglia & Sollozzo saying that he himself wanted to join them and, by the way, "what's in it for me?" He didn't bring anything to the table, as I recall, so I think this raised their suspicions.

Also, there may have been rumours floating about that Tessio was unhappy with his lot under Michael. As dburghardt says, there were no hints of problems between Luca and Vito (that we saw, anyway).

... BTW, Karl, nice analogy between the Corleone family and a business corporation.

good thinking CW - you're just way too nefarious for me!