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Part II Confusion
#33495
10/08/05 01:03 PM
10/08/05 01:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,211
Little Chicago
Tony Love
OP
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OP
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Little Chicago
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Have a few questions about part II. I want to get them straight, especially with this whole Pentangeli business.
So a few of the key players in this episode include: Michael, Frankie, and Hyman. So Frank doesn't like Hyman Roth. Michael is doing business with Roth as he spreads the Corleone empire to the west coast.
Michael assures Roth that everything is fine between them, and basically Pentangeli will be rubbed out. This isn't true. Roth's men make an attempt on Frankie's life, but make it look like Michael did it. Thus Frankie doesn't trust Michael and starts lashing out against the family, and that's where the hearings come into place.
Have I got this right? Is it totally skooed? Part II is probably the one I have most trouble understanding. Feel free to add some parts I may have left out.
"Any American who is prepared to run for president should automatically, by definition, be disqualified from ever doing so"-Gore Vidal
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth"-John Fitzgerald Kennedy
"The reason the mainstream is thought of as a stream is because of its shallowness"-George Carlin
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33498
10/08/05 03:19 PM
10/08/05 03:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 770
UK
The Dr. who fixed Lucy
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UK
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Roth's men make an attempt on Frankie's life, but make it look like Michael did it. Spot on. But what are we to make of the fact that the only line that supports this - "Michael Corleone says hello" - is supposedly ad-libbed. Did FFC really hinge the entire plot of the 2nd part of the film on an extempore utterance? Dunno what the answer is to the whole overly-complicated Roth/Pantangelli element of 2. All I know is that the bits with De Niro - the rise to power - is much much better than the Roth intreague. Only the immense comic presence of Frank Pentangell saves the "Roth" part of the film.
Joey ...
BANG BANG
... Saza!
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33499
10/12/05 05:02 PM
10/12/05 05:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 103
Don Chater
Made Member
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Made Member
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Originally posted by Tony Love:
Have a few questions about part II. I want to get them straight, especially with this whole Pentangeli business.
So a few of the key players in this episode include: Michael, Frankie, and Hyman. So Frank doesn't like Hyman Roth. Michael is doing business with Roth as he spreads the Corleone empire to the west coast.
Michael assures Roth that everything is fine between them, and basically Pentangeli will be rubbed out. This isn't true. Roth's men make an attempt on Frankie's life, but make it look like Michael did it. Thus Frankie doesn't trust Michael and starts lashing out against the family, and that's where the hearings come into place.
Have I got this right? Is it totally skooed? Part II is probably the one I have most trouble understanding. Feel free to add some parts I may have left out. Correct me if I'm wrong, since it has been quite a while since I've watched the movies, but I do believe that Michael goes to see Roth -- the baseball game scene in Roth's house(?) -- after the hit on Mike. Roth commented on the hit and Michael told him who he thought it was (Pentageli). This was to see Roth's reaction to the news, because I'm quite sure that Michael had an idea that it were a possibility that it was Roth trying to be rid of him, his reaction would solidify Michael's beliefs. I believe that that scene -- that meeting's sole purpose was to prove whether Roth really was the one who tried to kill him in his bedroom. He through in Pentangeli in there to just see his reaction. Just my 2 cents.
"If anything in this life is certain; If history has taught us anything, it's that you can kill anyone."
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33500
10/12/05 08:34 PM
10/12/05 08:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 701
Connecticut
Don Lights
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Underboss
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Posts: 701
Connecticut
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Originally posted by Don Chater:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony Love:
[qbCorrect me if I'm wrong, since it has been quite a while since I've watched the movies, but I do believe that Michael goes to see Roth -- the baseball game scene in Roth's house(?) -- after the hit on Mike. Roth commented on the hit and Michael told him who he thought it was (Pentageli). This was to see Roth's reaction to the news, because I'm quite sure that Michael had an idea that it were a possibility that it was Roth trying to be rid of him, his reaction would solidify Michael's beliefs. I believe that that scene -- that meeting's sole purpose was to prove whether Roth really was the one who tried to kill him in his bedroom.
He through in Pentangeli in there to just see his reaction.
Just my 2 cents. Your right, you remembered exactly what took place, and provided nice insight into the discussion.
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33502
10/13/05 11:05 AM
10/13/05 11:05 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Originally posted by Don Chater:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony Love:
[qb] Michael goes to see Roth -- the baseball game scene in Roth's house(?) -- after the hit on Mike. . Not trying to be picky here, but actually Roth is watching a college football game, and I think it is Notre Dame against USC. In real life Myer Lansky, the character on whom Roth is largely based was an avid football fan who gambled heavily (and usually won) on college football games.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33503
10/13/05 06:27 PM
10/13/05 06:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,019
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Don Pappo Napolitano
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,019
Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Tony Love, you got it. Hyman Roth never wanted Pentangeli killed because he needed him alive to betray Michael after saying "Michael says hello".
It`s true Michael told Roth he believed Pentangeli had attemped to kill him to see Roth`s reaction. After that, Roth had the idea to send "Michael`s word" to Pentangeli through the Rosato Brothers thinking Michael was willing to kill him(Remember when they say "then Pentangeli is a dead man")
After that, in Cuba, Michael asked Roth who ordered to kill Pentangeli, and he told him he didn`t, that`s when Roth knew he was discovered by Michael.Then Roth told Michael he would never ever ask about nothing, because he had a friend called Moe Green and when he was killed he never asked, Roth said sarcasticly.
Yes, GF2 like Gf1 and 3 is very hard to understand, you have to watch the 3 movies more than once to see new details.
Pelé is the King Maradona is God! 
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33507
10/13/05 11:16 PM
10/13/05 11:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,246
MistaMista Tom Hagen
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Posts: 4,246
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All I know is that the bits with De Niro - the rise to power - is much much better than the Roth intreague. Only the immense comic presence of Frank Pentangell saves the "Roth" part of the film. I have to drastically disagree with this. We're all entitled to our opinion but I personally enjoy Michael's storyline in Pt II much more then I enjoy Vito's. I don't see how you could say that Michael V. Gazzo's performance as Frank Pentangali, however good it might be, saves that part of the film. And to address the question of why the Rosato's try to frame Michael for Frankie's hit even though he's going to be dead, I'm gonna repost Turnbull's theory here. Originally Posted by Turnbull: The line was ad-libbed, but FFC let it remain in the final cut. Why? My oft-repeated opinion is that “Michael Corleone says hello” was intended not for Frankie—but for Richie, the bartender, whose ginmill was being used to set up Frankie.
It’s obvious that Richie is a “civilian,” not a Made Man, and he’s nervous as hell about his bar being used for a murder (“Carmine, NO, not HERE!” he screams at Tony’s brother (played by Carmine Caridi) after the cop enters and Carmine draws his gun).
The Rosatos know that Richie might be squeezed by the cops investigating Frankie’s murder. Richie would be too fearful of the Rosatos to identify them as the killers. Still, as a civilian, Richie is not bound by the code of omerta.
So they hand Richie something he can give the cops so that Richie can get off the hook: “The murderers said, ‘Michael Corleone says hello.’ ” That line would set the police after Michael, and would be picked up by the press-- another nail into the coffin of Michael Corleone’s “legitimacy.”
I dream in widescreen.
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33509
10/14/05 08:43 AM
10/14/05 08:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
plawrence
RIP StatMan
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RIP StatMan
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Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
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Remember Tom saying to Michael "Roth played this one beautifully."
The question is, was the "beauty" Roth's plan to leave Pentangelli alive thinking that Michael betrayed him, or was the "beauty" in Roth's alteration of his original plan, when the Pentangelli killing was accidently interrupted and Frankie was left alive?
"Difficult....not impossible"
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33511
10/14/05 10:12 AM
10/14/05 10:12 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 150
Maryland
Harry
Made Member
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Made Member
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Posts: 150
Maryland
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But what are we to make of the fact that the only line that supports this - "Michael Corleone says hello" - is supposedly ad-libbed. NOT TRUE, it's not the only line that supports it. MICHAEL Alive -- PENTANGELI is alive. How'd they get their hands on him? TOM ROTH. He engineered it MICHAEL. Frankie went to make a deal with the Rosato Brothers -- and they tried to kill him. Our people with the New York detectives said he was half dead, scared stiff, and calling out loud that you'd turned on him. They'd already had him on possession, bookmaking, murder 1, and a lot more
"I don't like violence, Tom. I'm a business man. Blood is a big expense".
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33512
10/14/05 10:45 AM
10/14/05 10:45 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,019
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Don Pappo Napolitano
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,019
Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Originally posted by olivant:
But, Don Pappo, keep in mind that most Board members are of the opinion that the only reason Pentangeli wasn't killed was that the cop interrupted the killing. So, it doesn't appear likely that Roth was trying to conince Pentangeli of anything. With Frank Pentangeli dead, nothing makes sense for Roth. Even if the cop hadn`t come in, Roth never wanted to kill him, he needed alive, the Rosato Brothers would have acted like they failed to kill him and somehow Frank survived. To make matters much better for Roth the cop was a very helpful tool to Roth`s plan. The cop helped without realizing to avoid suspictions against Roth and Frank would blame Michael. Once again olivant, Frank Pentangeli being dead is not a big deal.
Pelé is the King Maradona is God!
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33513
10/14/05 10:50 AM
10/14/05 10:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
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Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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Originally posted by Don Pappo Napolitano:
Once again olivant, Frank Pentangeli being dead is not a big deal. I totally disagree. I believe that Roth sent the Rosatto brothers to KILL Frankie, not almost kill him, but to kill him. When it turned out that Pentangeli was still alive, and talking his head off, THEN Roth took the hand that he was dealt and played it beautifully. But again, the question is, what was Roth's plan to get to Michael if the Rosatto brothers were successful in killing Pentangeli? Don Cardi 
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Part II Confusion
#33514
10/14/05 11:15 AM
10/14/05 11:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by Don Cardi:
[QUOTE]... the question is, what was Roth's plan to get to Michael if the Rosatto brothers were successful in killing Pentangeli?... And also...what was Roth's motivation to want Pentangelli killed once the hit on Michael had failed and Michael had already TOLD Roth that Pentangelli was a dead man; meaning that Michael would take care of killing Frankie since Michael led Roth to believe he thought it was Frankie who tried to have him (Michael) killed. So why would Roth go ahead and order Frankie's murder? What would he have to gain by it? Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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