Ah but if that convicted murderer was innocent?

Thus with your own "innocent" logic, you should be anti-Death Penalty.

You're referenced because of your great history of hyperbole and impulsive emotionalism.

I'm the more refined and precision striking upgrade, I'm DJ 2.0

This is possibly the most misogynistic statement I've ever read. Go back and read what I wrote. My own convenience? How inconvenient of me to have been violated in a senseless, violent act! Humiliation? Really? Is that what a rape victim suffers? Just feeling like a little bit embarrassed? Really? You obviously don't have a clue.

When did the woman's life become so devalued? According to both you and Longneck, we're just vessels that should be used to propagate the human race.

I have children. I love my children more than my own life. However, if they had been the product of a violent and random violation by a stranger, instead of a loving partnership, I don't know what I would have done. And nobody should have the option of dictating those actions to me, not to any woman.

I'm touched.

I guess that makes me the Old Snake/Lee Van Cleef to your Raiden?

Predicated solely on paternity?

Exactly Babe. You've come up with a rationale to destroy a life. Of course, your rationale does not contain any reference to the life you would be destroying. It does not contain any reference to the right of that life to live. There's only your right, correct? You would be destroying a life because it is an inconvenient life. Plain and simple.

Regardless of whether a fetus is a human being, it depends on someone else's body for survival.

There is no situation where we force people to let another to make use of their body for survival even in less significant ways. We do not force parents to donate organs to their children (even if they match and no other donor is available), we do not force people who cause serious injury to donate blood to their victims or anything of the like. In some cases we might think negatively of a person who refuses, but we grant them the choice. And *legal* late term abortions are ALWAYS about saving the mother, or a nonviable fetus.


And does anyone even care what happens to these children after they are born? Did Tiller's murderer frequent adoption agencies and adopt children in need, who's parents made a tough decision to have the child rather than abort it, but were unable to care for that child? Are anti-abortionists donating money to poor mothers who have their children rather than abort? There are SIX MILLION children under 6 years old living in poverty in the US, growing by 10 percent a YEAR. Sure, it's easy to say stop killing babies and to hold signs - but do your own god damned parts and try helping the babies and the children and the families which are currently alive and dying.

If you REALLY REALLY want to reduce the number of abortions in America, rather than making it illegal and yammering about people killing babies, what about affordable prenatal care available to all women, regardless of income? If that means it's free, so be it. What about making birth control widely accessible and cheap, maybe FREE with insurance like effing Viagra? It won't end all abortions, but it's better than murdering a man.

Nice post, Salad.

No, it's not hypocritical. What this doctor did was (unfortunately) legal and, for the women who hired him to do it, safe (safe for the women, anyway).

I'm not nuts about abortion because over the past 30+ years it's sadly evolved into the very selfish issue of 'a woman's right to choose'. I also feel that life begins at conception. (And forget about that 'what about rape/incest' crap, because those scenarios probably make up less than 10% of the cases where abortion is chosen.)

However, it is quite possible to be appalled at BOTH what he did AND what happened to him because of it.

Apple

Does this mean we can euthanize the handicapped, invalids, and elderly?

How are they attached to someone else's body? Machines maybe in the worst case scenarios. Machines aren't people.

This is partly in response to some of Salad's statements posted above, so read those statements first:

FY 2009 - the Federal government has budgeted $216 billion for Medicaid. That amount will be matched by the 50 states. Texas alone has budgeted $20 billion.

FY 2009 - the Federal government has budgeted almost $40 billion for food stamps.

Again, some of the rhetoric typed on this Board seems to advocate the destruction of a child because, well, not destroying that child would, well, you know, make things tough for someone.

So attachment - perhaps even proximity - is the qualifier?

That's absurd, olivant. Medicaid and food stamps? Do you know fucking POOR you have to be to obtain social services? So gut-wrenchingly poor that it's absurd. And if Medicaid is so easily available, how are almost 50 MILLION Americans uninsured?? And the great state of Texas, which is budgeting $20 billion for Medicaid, has almost 6 MILLION uninsured! (here's the website, if you want to check the figures - http://www.rwjf.org/files/research/20090324ctuw.pdf) Please tell me what the heck that has to do with the debate?

The working poor aren't offered insurance; they aren't offered affordable daycare. And if they somehow can afford to pay for daycare, what if the child is sick? How many days can a working mother stay home? Wake up and realize what it's like to be poor and have children in this country.

As for this selfish viewpoint I have about destroying an inconvenient life, that is NOT what I said! I have repeated myself over and over, but you seem to be as hard-headed as you accuse others of being. I didn't advocate for ANY position. It's not my choice to make, and it's certainly not yours.

I said that for those that say that only rape victims should be allowed an abortion, it's terribly cruel to ask a victim to prove that before they can make their choice.

Until some of you have been in the situation where you have to choose between being a single mom who can barely support herself, let alone a child.. and making the unfortunate decision to abort your baby, you should probably shut up.

Just sayin'.

And I'm saying that a child's right to life is not a function of the circumstances under which that child was conceived. Cruel to ask a rape victim to prove anything? What faux concern is that to someone who is willing to kill a child because the circumstances of the child's conception don't comport with that someone's idea of an appropriate conception. Would it be just as cruel or not to ask the child if he or she wants to live?

And federal and state appropriations of public funds for health care? Such appropriations don't have to exist at all; they are not entitlements. They are by statute mandated. That means that we the people have decided to provide them annually or biannually, but we can also decide to not provide them. How much are we taxpayers supposed to pay for other people's healthcare, childcare, food stamps, housing, and education? How much? Give us a figure. Texas appropriation of Medicaid funding alone is 21.9% of its annual state budget. How much is it in NY state?

I'll tell you what SB. Since you don't think we pay enough, why don't you try and make up the difference? And since Texas provides such inadequate funding for same, you are invited to seek out the poor in Texas and pay a month's worth of healtcare for them, or their rent, or a month's worth of groceries, or even just a week of childcare. In lieu of that, seek out the poor in NY and do the same. In fact, I'll bet there are at least a couple of Board members who qualify as poor. "Offer" to pay their healthcare or daycare premium. Since you are so offended by our Nation's and states inadequate compassion, try translating your pathos into tangible action.

Ontopic: Hmm, I don't have to shove a nail through my foot to know that it would hurt.

Offtopic: Howdy there, Bogey!

Ontopic: I'm just sayin sometimes people are so cut and dry on certain subjects, they never even stop to think about the situation.

Offtopic: What the fuck is up DJ??

Ontopic: I agree.

Offtopic: Well, when I last talked to you, it was the toilet paper.

Ontopic: Well... shit. I got nothin.

Offtopic: Haha.. that was like, 3 or 4 years ago. Lots happened since then. No more roommates

Ofttopic: Roommates are fail anyways, unless they're barely 18 and hotz0rz.

What have you been up to these days?

Oh, you know.. Got married in October, seperated in Feburary, more or less divorced now. I'm a 22 year old divorcee. Ha. I'm a social butterfly now. I work all the time, and get paid next to nothing. My boss is Lebanese, and hates women. So that's awesome. How bout yourself?

Want me to write your autobiography?

You can read about some of my exploits here.

Depends. Am I gonna get some royalties or some shit?

I knight thee, Lady of Sarsaparilla.

Boz It's good to see you here. You also DJ.

How are you, Mig?

Shh, don't let the word get around.

I'm great. I have a Son-In-Law now.

Remember to check the safety before you fire!