Ok, after my last watch, I’m more convinced than ever that Frankie didn’t deserve to die. Kicked out of the family interests yes, but spared his life. He wasn’t a traitor, he was forced into everything. He is a husband and a father and his choices were none

Lets look at the facts

1) Frankie Five Angels, a highly regarded capo-regime, who has served the Corleone’s faithfully way back from Vito’s day well into Micheal’s run. He has succeeded Clemenza in New York and hasn’t done a bad job running things even though the rest of the family is on the other side of the country. He is getting squeezed by the Rosato’s who belong to Hyman Roth. He attends Michael’s son’s holy communion with a hope to getting a word with his don and getting these matters straightened out. He has come all the way from New York, and this gesture is appreciated by Fredo…but not by Mike.

2) Michael doesn’t want to see Frank, not until very last. Michael would rather talk to Gardner Shaw than him. Pentangeli is understandably pissed to made to wait and thus he has a few drinks…what else can he do? Just why Mike is leaving Frank till last isn’t explained. During dinner, Frank STILL hasn’t been seen by Mike, and by now, he’s a little drunk and he wonders aloud just why this is the case. Frank is a capo-regime, he can speak out in this fashion, just as Tessio and Clemenza questioned Mike at the end of part 1.

3) Frank can be seen as a good man, incapable of betraying the Corleone’s by the way he plays with Anthony.

4) By the time Mike FINALLY sees Frank, he’s totally drunk and the conversation is not as it should be. Frank lays into Mike’s treatment of him, and then moves onto the issue of The Rosato’s and Roth.

5) Frank wants to know why Michael has permitted the new york end of the family to be squeezed by the Rosato brothers, and why he is conducting business with Hyman Roth. Mike’s explanation is glib, and he refuses to allow a hit on the Rosato brothers. Mike says he has business with Roth, who is responsible for two men harming Corleone family interests

6) Frank then says he wants to run his family without Michael on his back, but Mike says that his family still bears the name Corleone and he’ll run it like a Corleone…even though at the end of Part I, he promised Clemenza he’d get to break off and have his own family when he moves to Nevada. Mike then patronizes Frank by calling him a ‘good old man’, and ordering him not to take any action against the Rosato’s. Frank leaves this meeting unsatisfied…but bound to Mike’s orders

7) The attempt on Mike’s life is carried out and Mike visits Roth in Miami. From this meeting, the viewer is led to believe that Frankie actually carried out the hit attempt…but Frankie – drunk – would never have been able to organise such a thing in such little time, and if he arranged it beforehand, then why bother seeing Mike at all if he knew what the answer was going to be. Mike knew it wasn’t Frank, and Roth knew that Mike knew it wasn’t Frank, and Mike should have known that Roth knew Mike knew it wasn’t really Frank…but he doesn’t, and he is dumb enough to tell the wily veteran Roth that Frank is a dead man.

8) Mike sees Pentangeli at his house and initially yells at him to make us think that he really did do it. But Mike doesn’t really ever do things like that, he’d have just had Frankie shot if he thought he did it. Know, Mike quickly tells Frank that he knows Roth did it, which pleases Frankie who expects that the Rosato’s and Roth can now be hit on. Frank is desperate for these men to die, as he knows through experience that Roth can’t be trusted. Now that we are seeing a sober Frank, we can see that he cares for Michael and wants to serve him, yet he is perturbed to have to make nice with the Rosato’s and keep things cool while Mike has time to investigate who betrayed him. Frank is too loyal to know he’s being used and goes along with it, making the mistake of turning up his meet with the Rosato’s unaided…sending Cicci to his car. The Rosato’s then attempt to kill Pentangeli, which is interrupted by the police, this makes us think that Frankie was supposed to die, but the Rosato’s always intended to let Frankie live, hence the ‘Michael Corleone says hello’

9) There is the argument that Frankie shouldn’t have been fooled by ‘Michael Corleone says hello’ and realize that Mike would never work with the Rosato’s…but on the other hand, Mike has said time and time again that he has important business with Roth, and this was still going ahead. And Mike said that he wanted time to find out who the traitor in his family was…Frank must have thought that Mike decided HE was the traitor after all. The man has just had a near death experience and was picked up by the police and charged with all sorts, Cicci was also picked up and he squealed like a baby. With evidence to now hand Mike a subpoena (With Questadt pulling the strings in the senate) this happens and Mike is brought to trial.

10) Frank Pentangeli has nothing. He can’t trust Mike anymore and the police will put him away for life. Frank decides to speak to the FBI and break Omerta. He feels he was betrayed so now he can betray, and even if Mike wasn’t responsible for the hit attempt, he was still responsible for not helping Frank when he asked for it, and then using his life to keep Roth happy. Mike played it terribly…and yet, after the senate hearings break down and Frank sees his brother, Frank is still told to kill himself, that it was the only way for his family to be looked after. Frank does so, out of honour. At the end of the day, Frank spoke to the senate, but only after he had been crapped on oh so many times by Michael. He is 80% innocent and his death is a tragedy. He was a loyal Corleone employee.

Frank didn’t have to die. Mike, if he just sat down on his ass and thought about it, should have realized that Roth manipulated the whole thing, the best thing Mike could have done was to tell Frankie he’s sorry for what he’s put him through, and send him on his way to live a peaceful life somewhere.

Roth played it beautifully.

Frank broke Omerta. Period. He had to die. But he got a break because implicit in his promise to Tom that he'd kill himself, came a promise from Tom that his family would be taken care of. That was a better break than Michael's other victims got.

And all of Mike's other victims did deserve their fates. Frank did not.

Oh, yes, Frank did. Yes, he was out-manipulated by the battle between Roth and Michael. However, as DT said, he broke Omerta. No matter what the cops had on him, he never should have given up Michael. Once he did, he was a dead man. Because he recanted at the hearings, he was given the choice to kill himself in exchange for the care of his family.

IMO, Frankie was slighted by Michael - to a certain point. No doubt that Pentangeli was loyal to Michael's father and the family in the early days. If only Michael could have seen Frank a bit earlier that day and with a lot less "audience"...Michael could have explained to Frankie that there was business happening with major positive long term benefits for all involved. The short term "trouble" Frankie was having with the Rosatos would be taken care of as soon as Michael "secured" the deal with Roth. If only Michael counseled Frankie in confidence, like a good don and shown him more respect, Frankie would have left with the assurance that Michael had faith in him and sweet revenge on the Rosatos would indeed be Frankie's prize for his patience. Instead, Frankie left feeling as if he was left to "wither on the vine" all by himself in NY. However, Frankie kept drinking that day and was angered as the day turned into night when he finally got to see Mike. We all know how alcohol amplifies emotions - good or bad. In the end, Frankie is responsible for his conduct that day. Of course, this is just my 2 cents...

I thought you were defending Frankie for a minute there

Why did Mike treat Frank like crap at the communion?

There is no question that Frankie was badly mistreated by Michael. He was a pawn between Michael and Roth. After the Tahoe shooting, Michael played him like a violin--Frankie was so grateful that Michael didn't blame him for the shooting that he agreed to put his head in the lion's mouth and meet with the Rosatos. If Frankie settled with the Rosatos, a Michael headache would disappear. If the Rosatos killed him, it was one more proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting. Michael couldn't lose--only Frankie did. The way Frankie's confused, everyman character was written, and portrayed so brilliantly by Michael V. Gazzo, is one of the treasures of GFII.

BUT: As others have pointed out, Frankie broke omerta. He would have been the highest-level Mafia guy to that time to break omerta. Had he been permitted to live, his example might have stimulated others, put in his desperate situation, to do likewise. Even more important: though Frankie's credibility as a witness against Michael at that hearing was wiped out by his recantation, the government would still be in a position to grill him for info that could be used against others--and against Michael, over time. They might have been able to use that info to get at Michael or those close to him even without using Frankie as a witness.

He knew too much, and had shown himself willing to use it. Fatal mistake.

Yeah, I can't argue with much of that. But Mike should turn the gun on himself and blow his own head off too.

Oh, by the way, you're saying that if Roth ordered the Rosato's to kill Frank, then it would have proved Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting? Why? The Rosato's could have acted out alone without Roth's say-so.

Good question.
I believe that, immediately after the Tahoe shooting, Michael was 95% certain that Roth was behind it. Michael could easily have had Roth whacked in his Miami home--he had no organization per se, just Johnny Ola. But the Havana deal was still pending, and Michael had to be 100% sure it was Roth before acting. So, his visit to Frankie was a kind of loyalty test. In a brilliant bit of manipulation, he showed up unannounced at Frankie's home, bellowed at him about the shooting--and then abruptly shifted gears and blamed Roth. Frankie almost passed out with relief. That's when Michael applied the loyalty test: "Settle those troubles with the Rosato brothers." It was very humiliating--and risky--for Frankie. But once he agreed, Michael was able to rule him out and was 100% sure that Roth was the Tahoe villain.

As for the Rosatos: since Roth was interceding with Michael for them in their dispute with Frankie, Michael knew they couldn't very well whack Frankie without Roth's approval. So, when it appeared that they had killed Frankie, Michael knew that the order could have come only from Roth. When Michael left Roth in Miami, he said: "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man." Roth himself must have nearly passed out from relief. But when, instead of killing Frankie, Michael dispatched Frankie to make up with the Rosatos, Roth knew he didn't suspect Frankie--meaning that Michael might suspect Roth. So, Roth's order to the Rosatos to kill Frankie was an effort to weaken Michael by eliminating his caporegime in NYC--and Michael knew it.

Hollywood, I was defending Frankie. I agree with TB, he was treated very unfair at the communion meeting. Michael was a careless don by not taking Frankie into his confidence much earlier in the day thus showing Pentangeli that he was indeed a major commodity to the Corleone family future. Frankie was entrusted to run the family business in NY that Vito established...if Michael couldn't trust Frankie, who could he trust? (No Fredo jokes here, please.) LCN rules 101, you can't talk to the don in the manner Frankie did, drunk or sober. IMO, Frankie had every right to be angry about a lot of issues but remember the famous GF3 quote Michael passed on to Vincent; "Never hate your enemy. It affects your judgement." Frankie hated the Rosatos - probably more than he disliked Roth.

Great posts both of you. Some respect coming Frankies way at last

I also agree about the performance of V Gazzo - Outstanding, absolutely outstanding.

''As for the Rosatos: since Roth was interceding with Michael for them in their dispute with Frankie, Michael knew they couldn't very well whack Frankie without Roth's approval. So, when it appeared that they had killed Frankie, Michael knew that the order could have come only from Roth. When Michael left Roth in Miami, he said: "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man." Roth himself must have nearly passed out from relief. But when, instead of killing Frankie, Michael dispatched Frankie to make up with the Rosatos, Roth knew he didn't suspect Frankie--meaning that Michael might suspect Roth. So, Roth's order to the Rosatos to kill Frankie was an effort to weaken Michael by eliminating his caporegime in NYC--and Michael knew it.''

Ok...I got another one for you....why bother with ANY of the Cuba deal if he knows Roth is going to keep trying to off him??

Gazzo was perfect. I can't imagine anybody else in that role.

Here goes more of my 2 pennies...If Michael would have struck Roth prematurely, he would have looked "bad" in the eyes of the other "investors" and more importantly, the commission. Mike had to be 100% sure that Roth was the pinnacle "bad guy" in the events that were unfolding before he set ANY plan in motion. One test Michael gave Roth was at the birthday cake scene in Havana. Michael described to Roth that he witnessed the young resistance would rather blow themselves up rather than be captured for their cause. The look on Roth's face is priceless - It seems to me that it was the first time Roth suspected that Michael was not an easy "target" as he once thought...IMO. I defer to Turnbull, he usually hits the nail on the head...TB, thoughts?

Frankie had to go.

Yes, he was misused by Michael. He was right about Hyman Roth, but as Michael pointed out, his 'Family' was still named 'Corleone'. He really should've stayed in New York and kept his mouth shut.

As for...
3) Frank can be seen as a good man, incapable of betraying the Corleone’s by the way he plays with Anthony.

Except he DID betray the Corleones, even if it was only after he believed he was double-crossed by Michael. Only the sight of his brother stopped him from putting Michael Corleone in prison.

It's a sad story what happened to Frankie. But he had to go.
And he knew it...and he took it like a man.

So when the flip do you not decide....hey...SELF PRESERVATION!!!!?

What's your point??

The point is...Frank doesn't want to die.

So he breaks Omerta. Which means he's NOT innocent.

And he dies anyway. Because he deserves it.

Self preservation is not unique to Frank Pentangelli. It's the way his world works, and the strongest guy is the one left standing.

Like you say...Roth played it beautifully.
But, OH, wait...he died too!!

So who's left standing?

Self preservation.

Fuck Omerta.

Michael should have died for acting like a [derogatory term for a woman's genitalia] many times over, he disrespected Tessio and Clemenza, he crapped on Tom and then fucked on Frank....

Mike was scum throughout his reign as the Don. Had contempt for every single member of his family except Al Neri.

.


Edited by SC to remove a censored word which was attempted to be bypassed through chicanery

Many good points have been made here in regards to Frank, Michael, the way he treated Frankie, etc.

But I have to agree with Apple here. The bottom line is that he broke Omerta! Self preservation or not, he betrayed the family. And for doing so, no matter how many ways one wants to justify it, Frank had to die for it. When you really think about it Michael was somewhat generous in allowing Frankie a way out that would let him keep his honor and have his family taken care of.

" Fuck Omerta.

Michael should have died for acting like a c-unt many times over, he disrespected Tessio and Clemenza, he crapped on Tom and then fucked on Frank....

Mike was scum throughout his reign as the Don. Had contempt for every single member of his family except Al Neri."

Typical response of someone who's case is falling apart.

If you have no better arguments as to why Frankie didn’t deserve to die, I guess you've given it your best shot.

One thing you're right about, though...Gazzo's performance.


Apple

I'm right about all of it.

You are too set in your Michael loving ways to ever accept my points. But my points are made well and true. You need to put yourself in the head of Frankie...and ask yourself...what the hell do I do now?

And he didn't actually break Omerta. He didn't testify in an open court that everything he said was true. He threatened to break Omerta...but didn't actually do so!

You're missing the point. You can't try to moralize it, because Pentangeli was a killer in his own right. He knew the rules. And when push came to shove, he had to die.

And watch your language. The C word isn't tolerated here. There are ladies on this site.

Right.

And then you need to put yourself in the head of Michael Corleone...and ask yourself...what the hell do I do with Frank Pentangelli now?

You kill him. Because he turned on you. Whatever the reason, whatever unfortunate circumstances led him to do it. He turned on you, and he turned on his Family.

And he has to die.

Apple

Ladies who watch the GF films and I'm sure are aware of naughty little words.

Are you a mod? If not, don't tell me off please.

Pentangeli knew the rules...and so did Mike...so why should we care about Mike? Because he's a character in these films...and so should we also care about Frank. A mobster maybe...but a man completely ragged on by his boss.

He didn't turn on Mike....he was turned on BY Mike!

No, he believed he was turned on by Michael. Right or wrong, that is what he thought.

And then he then turned on Michael, in retaliation.
Self preservation, sure.

And so, it didn't work. And he had to die.

Apple

I also beleive he was turned on by Mike in the sense that he recieved ZERO support from his don and was thrown to the wolves. Had he not been used by Mike in his schemes to trap Roth...then the Rosato's would have evenutally killed him because he was being forced into doing nothing.

Man, Mike got such a lot wrong.

Hollywood,

I am a mod on this board and I don't appreciate the use of the C word.

Now that aside, I understand where you are coming from with Michael being a bastard Boss to almost everyone. You're right about that. However, he was still the Boss and therefore no matter how justified one may be or may have been in turning on him and opening their mouth, Michael had to make an example out of ANYONE who turned on him. Damn, he killed his own brother for turning on him! You think that he was going to give Frankie a pass? As I said, in truth, Michael was somewhat generous in allowing Frankie to take his own life so that his family would be taken care of. Maybe it was Michael's way of saying to Frankie " I know that I sort of put you in the place that you wound up, so I'll give you a way out now."

Bottom line, bastard boss or not, he was still the boss and it would have shown weakness not only to Michael's enemies, but to those in his own family, had he given Frankie a pass. As much as I loved the Frankie Five Angels character, he had to die for what he did.

Michael made it clear in his discussion with Frank that he had business to do with Hyman Roth, and did not want it disturbed.

You have your priorities wrong, Michael was THE DON and was the one who should've received support from Frankie.

Had he not come to Nevada to complain in the first place, it is questionable whether he would've ever been placed in the position where he was almost killed by the Rosato's.

And even if he was, the end result is that he turned on his Don.

He broke Omerta.

He had to go.

Apple