What do you think Fredo's murder did to Tom's relationship to Michael?

Was Tom's desire to be considered a brother to Michael strong enough to make him overlook it and continue to "go along" with Michael?

Or did he ask permission to leave the Family? Or to work exclusively in the more legitimate parts of the Family business?

Or did he feel it was justified?

I believe Tom did not approve of Michael's "take no prisoners" approach after the Cuba deal went down, but I also think ever the loyal soldier he stayed with Michael, and masked any disagreements. I am sure Michael continued to play him, but I get the sense that Tom may have been further marginalized as Michael moved back to New York and began selling the casino interests and getting himself involved in the "legitimate" world. Tom did not have the ability to get into mergers and acquisitions, and my guess is he played a role in selling the casinos, and then was put out to pasture with a healthy retirement package. I believe his death may have been related to all this, and of course after his death Michael was free to invite Teresa to parties, attend Andrew's ordination, tell everyone what a great lawyer Tom was and how close they were as "brothers."

"Do I have to tell you about every offer I turn down?" If Tom received an offer, it doesn't seem that it would be out of the blue. Therefore, Tom must have solicited offers which indicates that he received more than one offer and that he wanted out.

However, he was excluded from the meeting with Ola about the casino and so I conclude that Tom was not involved in the casino side of the family.

Good question, LW. Several answers possible:
I think whatever "brother" relationship twixt Tom and Michael had all but disappeared after that penultimate boathouse humiliation, which occurred before Fredo's murder. In fact, you could make a case that part of the motivation for Fredo's murder was Michael firing a shot across Tom's bows--"You got an offer [maybe even solicited an offer, as Olivant said]? Nobody leaves me--brother or no. Look at Fredo."

I also believe that Tom's abiding characteristic, loyalty, took over whatever misgivings he may have had about Fredo's murder. And, not to put too fine a point on it, Tom's options were limited, by his lack of experience outside the family business, and by the fact that Michael would never let him go. Tom, even better than Michael, knew that, as long as he was "house counsel" to the Corleones, law enforcement would have to tread carefully in moving against him and Michael due to attorney/client privilege and the fact that bar associations are vigorous in protecting their own kind. Cut loose from the Corleones, Tom would be fair game for law enforcement pressure against him and his former client.

I think its an interesting topic this. We see very little interaction with Fredo and Tom, which is disappointing. How many is there? Tom interrupts Fredo trying to get him to get the Don to stop Mike in his tracks re Moe Greene? Then walking along with him at the nightclub with Geary and the whore, and then when Fred asks Tom at him mothers funeral if he can see Mike. So thats three scenes or so for a pair of brothers over 6 or so hours...its a shame. We never know just how close they are. Certainly we know Tom has a strong bond with Sonny, and he craves a relationship with Michael. But with Freddie...we just don't know.

There's a nice line in Part II when Mike asks Tom about what Fredo knows...

'He says he doesn't know anything, and I believe him'

I like that line, whether its true or not, who knows, but Tom seems to be trying to protect Fredo. And as Mike is dealing strictly with Neri in planning to kill Fredo, I don't think Tom is involved at all, sending him out to the army barracks to speak to Frank at the time Fredo is to be shot. I'd like to think that Tom would be appalled. He bemoaned Mike's decision to wipe everyone out, and its the common beleif that Fredo really was duped by a very clever man in Roth.

Good topic.

Yes, but sometimes it's quality, not quantity that counts. Tom's demeanor toward Fredo on BOTH of those scenes is quite telling. Whatever 'brotherly' feelings there may have been between the two, Tom knew full well that Fredo was a detriment to the 'Corleone Family' and that by conspiring with Roth in whatever capacity, he could very well have destroyed it.

Whatever 'personal' revolt he may have found in the murdering of Fredo; he may have understood that it had to be done. Unlike the killing of Roth which he meekly protested...the utter stupidity of Fredo made it possible that he might one day be led to betray again.

Apple

Tom didn't so much disagree that Roth should be killed, more the probability of successfully carrying out an assassination on a very well guarded man.

I don't think we can know Tom feels this way about Fredo, when Mike calls Fredo weak and stupid, we don't see Tom nod in agreement, also, when Tom says Fredo doesn't know anything....had he been against Freddie, he'd have told Mike plainly that the guy has got to go

We just don't know if Tom LOVES Fredo - thats the key.

You're right to cite that scene because it does show that Tom was trying to protect Fredo. The first thing Michael asks Tom when they're alone is, "Where's my brother?" Tom attempts to deflect the question by telling Michael that Roth had a stroke, got out, will recover, and that his bodyguard's dead. Michael tries again: "I asked you about Fredo." Tom replies: "Uh, he must be in New York..." Without missing a beat, Michael tells Tom to "get word to Fredo..." (etc.).

How did Tom know that Fredo was in New York? Fredo must have called him as soon as he fled Havana--no doubt scared out of his mind and probably begging Tom to get him off the hook with Michael. And Michael seemed to immediately accept that Tom was in touch with Fredo--"tell him I know Roth misled him" (etc.).

Yep, yep, yep. Spot on!!

At the end of the day I doubt Tom really ever beleived Fredo meant to see his brother dead.

I don't know that this was necessarily to 'protect' Fredo than to simply concur that the guy really doesn't know anything. It may be true that even Michael believed that Fredo was 'kept in the dark' as he said he was.

The significance in Tom's feelings toward Fredo after the betrayal is not necessarily what Fredo 'knew', but in what in his greed and stupidity Fredo had caused to happen.

Apple

But the evidence leans to Tom feeling empathy towards Fredo

I don't see that it does.

In reference to the scene where Michael asks about Fredo and gets info on his bodyguard & Roth...I don't take that as Tom 'protecting' Fredo. At this point his mind is more on breaking the news about Kay's 'miscarriage', which he knows Michael will take badly.

Why would Tom guess that Fredo was in New York? Maybe because other than Vegas, New York was the only home Fredo had ever know and where else would the buffoon go, having no connections & no source of income anywhere else? It was the logical conclusion.

At the wake of their mother, Tom literally brushes off Fredo after curtly answering his questions about Michael's whereabouts. Seconds later when Connie asks to see Michael, he graciously tells her where to find him.

It's pretty clear Tom has no use for Fredo, and no interest in protecting him. He would be a fool to do so, and there was only ONE fool in the Corleone Family. Again, while the idea of killing Fredo may have turned his stomach on an emotional level, as a business decision he might have known that it was the only punishment that was just.

Apple

Your examples show Tom doing what he has to do to please Michael...but is that what he really felt? Especially with Mike blowing so hot and cold on him all the time?

If you're talking about the wake...Michael was not in the room so therefore Tom would have no need to 'please' him by virtually brushing Fredo off with the 'In the boathouse - waiting for you to leave.', and then, 'Not a chance...' replies. It's doubtful that Mike would care how Fredo was kept away from him, as long as he was kept away.

I think that as an actor, Duvall made the choice to display a kind of disdain for Fredo, due to what his actions had nearly cost the Family. Had there been any iota of 'brotherly love' or affection, his reply might've been just a bit more sympathetic. I think this is all very clear, Fredo was a virtual outcast to all but Connie.

But again to respond to the ORIGINAL question...Tom may have been horrified by Michael's decision to kill Fredo, but as a lawyer may have felt it was justified (which it was).

Apple

Apple makes a strong point about Tom's brushoff of Fredo at Mama's wake. Yes, he was doing Michael's bidding at that point. But I also believe there may have been a personal reason for Tom's coldness to Fredo then. Mama's death occurred after Michael's initial Senate testimony--and the fateful boathouse meeting in which Fredo told Michael that Pentangeli was alive and that the Senate lawyer, Questadt, "belonged" to Roth. Tom should have known both--and he didn't. Fredo's perfidy made Tom look bad in Michael's eyes. It probably also convinced Tom that Fredo may have been more malicious than he thought.

Nah man, Tom knew about Pentangeli's survival from Fredo, he relayed this news to Mike. Fredo probably told Tom about Questadt too but Tom let Fredo hang on to that and tell it to Mike himself, as it may have gotten him off the hook.

Tom's coldness to Fredo at the wake is explained simply because Al was watching them and Tom knows that if he's nice to Fredo, Al will go straight to Mike.

Ah, the memories!

Apple and THF going at each other's throats.

It's like it's 2006 all over again.

People saw Tom as an intermediary to get to Michael when in fact, whatever his misgivings he was not. Fredo asked Tom to intervene in the Moe Greene scene, which
Tom refused, Tessio asked Tom to get him off the hook for old times sake, and Fredo made his request at mama's funeral. Tom never wavered.

The dialog from the boathouse scene when Michael exclaims, "Pentangeli is alive!" doesn't support your viewpoint:

MICHAEL: What about FREDO? What does he know?


TOM: He says he doesn't know anything -- and I believe him. ROTH well he -- he played this one beautifully.


MICHAEL:I want to talk to FREDO.

Tom found out about Pentangeli's survival from the Senate committee (either the chair or Questadt) because they were required to disclose to him the witness they were about to use against his client (Michael). Fredo probably did tell Tom he knew nothing--then, when he was with Michael, he blurted out that he knew Pentangeli was alive, and that Questadt belonged to Roth. That would have made Tom look like a fool for telling Michael, just a bit earlier, that "He says he doesn't know anything--and I believe him." Not the stuff to ensure warm feelings all around.

Tom made a quote in the script which was dropped:

MICHAEL
I asked about Fredo?

HAGEN
The new government arrested him,
held him for a couple of days with
a lot of the other casino people,
including Roth's brother, Sam. The
American Embassy arranged flights
for citizens; I'm not sure, but I
think he's somewhere in New York.

MICHAEL
I want you to reach Fredo. I know
he's scared, but have one of our
people reach him. Assure him that
there will be no reprisals. Tell
him that I know Roth misled him.

HAGEN
My information is that Fredo
thought it was a kidnapping. Roth
assured him nothing would happen to
you.

MICHAEL
(indicating Rocco and
Neri on the balcony)
They can come in now.


Was Tom trying to save Fredo's life? Michael doesn't respond to this until he talks to Fredo by implying Fredo could not have been stupid enough to believe this story.

TB, I'm not sure that disclosure rules apply to a Senate investigation.

Well, I don't think Tom would have held that against him if that was the case, which I'm not sure it is.

After Part II, Tom ran for office, made his bones by whacking some guy with a boat oar, and was drowned by Ace Geraci for payback after the Corleone's killed his father.

The thing about Tom is it took him a long time to get on board with Michael's plans. He truly was not a wartime consigliere and lacked the "Sicialian cunning" necessary to ferret out enemies before they do harm. Some on these boards blame him for Sonny's death (I don't), and everyone agrees that his first instinct is always to patch things up.

But when he's with the program, he is tough as nails. We see this in GF when Tessio asks if he will intervene and get him "off the hook." Tom coldly says "No chance Sallie," and then gestures with his head indicating the hitter should get on with it. We see this toughness again when he ruthlessly compromises Geary. By the time of Mama's funeral he is truly disgusted with Fredo and his betrayal, and again he goes out of his way to be cold, telling Fredo Mike is out of the room waiting "for you to leave."

Another example of Tom getting tough when he's with the program: His assessment of the need to get into the drugs business. No moral compunctions with Tom, just business...

In a deleted scene, Tom tells Anthony "Why don't you go out in the garden and get your grandfather to chase you?"

And..."never mind what the government says about DDT--spray him up!"

My best laugh on this board for weeks. Thank you, olivant and Turnbull.

regarding D.B.C.H., i thought you could only be MADE if your were completely italian? i'm not saying he couldn't whack somebody, anybody can. But, my question is the made aspect of it. Look at how many people The Iceman whacked for the mob and he was not made because he was Polish.

you seem to really have it in for Fredo. Fredo never wanted Michael dead he was trying to make a deal on his own probably a gambling deal or something and michael the psycho that he was killed Fredo anyway