In the Tattaglia's a pimp thread, TB made the point that the five families war eas ended less by sheer muscle but by betrayal and (paraphrasing) good strategy. This is correct, of coure, but IMHO the unintended consequence of this war was much like the unintended consequences resulting in the allied victory in WWI to the rise of Hitler and WWII.

In the five families war, Michael was too harsh. By killing Moe Green he made an enemy of Hyman Roth, who bided his time and almost killed Michael, got Fredo to turn traitor, led to the Senate hearings, and to the deaths of Fredo, Roth and Pentangeli (formerly a loyal Corleone lieutenant). These were the inintended consequences of Michael not backing off on Moe.

Well, maybe...
Killing Moe certainly must have triggered the personal element in the Roth/Corleone battle scenarios you described. But I've always believed that Michael intended to be undisputed emperor of legalized gambling in the Western Hemisphere--and there was no room for Roth in his plan. That's why Roth had good reason to feel threatened. So, even if Michael had spared Moe, would he have backed off his plans for domination of gaming in Nevada and Havana? And would that have made a difference to Roth?

I think all Michael really wanted to do was provide 100% safety for his family. Unfortunately, the nature of the world is that every time you clear a larger zone of safety, there's a larger border of danger around it....

This is interesting , DT.

As pointed out there was probably no room for either Green or Roth in Michael's plans. That's a shame as far as Roth goes because I really do think he was acting in self-defense against an expansionist Corleone machine.

But Green?
He was stealing money from the Corleones, slapped Fredo around, insulted the Corleone Family and basically dared Michael to do anything about this by invoking Barzini's name.

And Michael still gave him a chance to get out peacefully. Once Green refused I don't see that Michael had much of a choice in his next actions.

I've posted elsewhere that all of Vito's boys had merely a few components of Vito's personality and characteristics. That's usual because none of us is a duplicate of our parents. So, Mike had a large amount of Vito's intelligence and ruthlessness (when Vito thought it was necessary), but he didn't have the whole package. Thus, he mimicked Vito to a large degree which is not the same as acting like Vito with the same strategy and motivation in mind. Don't forget that the novel makes it clear that the Corleones "did not wish to persuade Green." That means Vito didn't. In addition, as Michael admits, Vito "planned alot of it" (the revenge). But again, it was all part of a comprehensive approach that Vito took to retrieve the family's position. On the other hand, Michael could simply let his emotions govern him. He might have thought he was doing good for the family, but it was actually his assuaging his own feelings.

Putting the novel aside, IMHO Moe was small potatoes. In Roth's great scene with Michael he says more than anyone he loved Moe Green, but he was aware that Moe had a bad temper, went around saying stupid things, so when he turned up dead he said to himself "this is the business we've chosen."

Instead of killing Moe, Michael could have arranged to move him out like he did with Klingman. Moe may have gone along.

I disagree, DT. Moe tells Michael that he's already talked to Barzini, and that he can make a deal with him. He perceived the Corelones as weakened, and trying to flee NYC and muscle in on "his" territory. There's no way that Moe was going to leave as Klingman did.

SB...after what happened to Barzini Moe would have not been able to "tawk" to him anymore. If Michael had spared him, I suspect he would have been more willing to negotiate....kinda like the bandleader.

Yes, he would have. But Michael could see that Moe was unwilling to negotiate at first glance. Plus, Michael needed to get revenge for Moe slapping Fredo around in public. The main reason he didn't make a deal with Moe is that he really didn't WANT to make a deal with Moe.

Moe was a loose cannon. Mike had to get rid of him for strategic reasons (plus personal). Moe had Roth's backing, but as we've posted elsewhere, Roth do not have any troops.

I´ve always felt that Roth was being sincere when he told Michael that he would let the Moe Greene thing go, despite his threatening demeanor. Yeah, I know, "Hyman Roth" and "sincere", but it always seemed to me that the hit on Michael was motivated by current developments. But it´s an interesting thought, and the way the Five Families War ended definitely contributed to what happened, like in the way Michael turned out as a Don.

But I somehow think Michael´s problems arose from the fact that he couldn´t form personal alliances based on loyalty, like Vito did. He could have noticed that Fredo and Frankie harboured resentments but he chose not to.

Hey, ConsiGliera used lower case "g"s in her post.

... yeah, I can´t believe I kept that "G" thing up for so long. And how sweet of you to remember me, SC!

You're hard to forGet.

IS this a Godfather thread or a "G- string?"