Is there some point you're making with the numbers above?

SC, are you familiar with Butterfly Effect?

I think I was absent that day when they taught it in school. What is it?

As a matter of fact there is.

Do we, as Americans, rely on and go by numbers and polls under the current administration as many here in the country, around the world and even here on these boards did under the last administration?

I can recall many a time when those against then President Bush and his policies continually posted and quoted polls and stats that showed negativity in regards to the then president's actions, policies and it's effects on the country. To those who were quoting those polls and statistics, those polls and statistics were dependable, solid and proof that then President Bush and what he was doing was having a negative affect on the people, the country and the world.

I didn't believe in the polls and the statistics then. Never believed in polls and the statistics. Anyone and anybody with a half a brain can be creative and make polls and statistics work together in their favor in regards to what they WANT to advocate or try and make appear to be true.

However now that Barack Obama is President, those SAME people who relied on, quoted, posted and advocated polls and statistics as a way to prove that what they believed was wrong with then President Bush and the effects his policies were having, now are saying that quoting polls and statistics are meaningless and prove absolutely nothing.

And for what it's worth, I agree. At least I've remained consistant in my belief that polls and statistics can be used and manipulated to advocate ANY position. That in plain english most polls are just bullshit!

However there are those who have not remained consistant.

And I am calling them out on it!

What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.


Again, I hope that our President turns out to be the best President that we ever had. I do not wish him failure as many of the opposite party did with then President Bush. I always said that it should never be about party, but instead should be about country and humanity!

I do not and will not rejoice IF, God Forbid, this president fails, as many have and still are in regards to President Bush and his shortcomings.

There are a lot of Fucking hypocrites out there who all of a sudden believe that it is un-american to go against THIS president and his policies. The same people who openly bashed, desicrated and put down our last president.

That's the point I am trying to make.

Don Cardi is ONE THOUSAND PERCENT right about this.

No one was more critical of President Bush's second term than I was. But we can't be hypocrites about it either. If you were willing to accept polls about Bush doing a poor job, then you must be willing to accept them when it comes to Obama, too.

What's right is right.

Which would be fine and dandy if Don Cardi had posted anything remotely resembling a poll about President Obama. He didn't. He posted the Dow Jones average, which has nothing to do with polling numbers.

The truth is, in a March 3rd poll conducted by NBC and The Wall Street Journal, 68% of those polled have a favorable opinion of President Obama, while only 26% view the GOP favorably.

As for President Bush, anyone who gloried in his many failures is a fool. This is still MY country and I still want what's best for it and its people. Unfortunately, that was not to be President Bush's fate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect#Origin_of_the_concept_and_the_term

It jokingly alludes to the possibility that a seemingly small/unconnected event can have a large scale effect. Ofcourse the scientific origin of the term is explained in that link.

Good points DC, but the best point of all is this:



That is why I try to stay out of these threads because I just get mad at people. Anyone can make anything, from statistics and polls to something specific somebody said, mean something else that benefits their point.

Is it worth it for everyone to continue arguing with each other? I don't believe I've ever seen a heated political argument that ends up with "Good point, I'm switching parties!".

Both sides can point out hypocrisy til the end of time and nobody will ever admit to being guilty of it.

My intention of poll numbers is my reference of the statistics/polls taken of then Senator Obama pulling ahead of McCain according to the POLLS back in OCTOBER. Those numbers ARE in fact based on the average POLL taken.

What I did was point out that when, according to those POLLS, Obama posted his biggest margin to date that month, the dow jones tumbled.

I pointed out that when he won the election, the dow once again tumbled.

I then pointed out that when President Obama signed the American recovery act, the dow once again nosedived.

Had this happened under President George Bush, many here and around the country, the anti-Bush people, would have said that the dow took a dive because investor confidence was lost when it looked as though Bush would win the election, when Bush finally won the election and when Bush signed into law a bill that he co-authored and agreed with. Let's be honest.....they would have blamed George W. Bush.

I am not saying that Obama should be blamed for the decline in the Dow, or the fall of the economy in general. But merely was trying to point out that it could be made to appear that way if one wants to make it appear that way no matter who the President is.

Why are the same people who used these stats and polls against a President that they hated now saying that stats and polls should not be used against a president that they support?

Hypocricy at it's best!

Apples and oranges. Obama didn't set the stage for the Dow to fall. Eight years of W did.

C'mon now. Your man's party lost and your man (who up until the debates thought that the economy was sound) was sent packing. Get used to it and give up this witch hunt against Obama.

Don't put words in my mouth and don't you dare accuse me of mounting some kind of witch hunt!

It's amazing how when the tables are turned the people from your party rant and rave that their candidate is being treated unfairly and that the opposition is being un-american because they say something negative about Obama! For 8 years OUR President, George W. Bush was belittled, abused, mistreated, blamed and slandered by the same people who know get offended at even the littlest thing that is said against President Obama.

The difference between myself and some others is that both President Obama and President Bush are MY presidents. Many people only support the President that represents their party. I support this President and hope that he has success! I don't root for failure as many have and did when W was president.

That's what's wrong with this country. This is exactly where we went wrong.

Oh, and please, in your next post, at least try and debate the ACTUAL issue at hand instead of reverting back to the same old "it's the previous administrations fault" song.

It's tired and old.

Remember, we are now in a time for CHANGE!!!

Hopefully we'll have some change left in our pockets!

Yadda yadda yadda usual bullshit yadda yadda yadda.

Apple, errrr, I mean DC, give it up already.

Be sensible. You're all are talking about correlations, not economic relationships. The Dow (by the way, just one measure of the Nation's economic prosperity) was at about 8,500 when Bush assumed the Presidency. It had been over 11,000 during the final year or so under Clinton. Under Bush, the Dow climbed to over 14,000 in early 2008. So, both Clinton and Bush presided(?) over significant declines in the Dow during their final year or two in office. So what!

You asked if there was a point that I was trying to make. When I explain my point, instead of posting your view in response to the exact issue, you accuse me of mounting a witch hunt and basically imply that I am bitter because my party's candidate did not win. Not the case at all.

You surprise me SC, you really do. I never expected you, of all people, to accuse me of something like that. I thought that if anything, YOU would reply with a respectable answer and partake in a decent debate.






WTF?

Oh, blow out it your blowhole.

Now look what you did. You dragged oli into this thread and he made another post that nobody could understand.

"You surprise me DC. If posts on this Board have taught us anything, if there's anything you can be certain of on this Board, it's ... Wait, there's nothing we can be certain of on this Board. Hell, I'm going to talk to Fredo!"

Don't think that just because you are the second in command here that I'm gonna back down from you. And if I come back at you and that gumbah Geoff tries any moderator stuff, you tell him I ain't no Lompac! Yeah, I heard that story....


I made my point without attacking my president. Think you can you make yours wihtout all the bullshit?

I really dont come on here anymore because everytime someone says something that the person above him/her doesnt agree with that person is made out to be an idiot. This place used to be civil.

by the way, the dow has dropped over 20 percent since the chosen one became president.

If there was a way, I'd type in crayon just for you SC.

Blue or red?

Oh, for God's sake, DC, SC is right. You sound bitter and in desperate need to pick a fight where there's none to be found. You quote the Dow drop as if there is some relation to the instability of the stock market and President Obama taking office. If there was a correlation between the fear and uncertainty that is causing the Dow to tank, then I doubt that as of 6 days ago, President Obama would have had a 68% approval rating.

This point is absurd. If you didn't expect the stock market to be like it is now regardless of who won the Presidency back in October, you weren't paying attention. If you believe John "I'm No Economist" McCain would have made a better fist of things, with Sarah "I Can See Russia" Palin waiting in the wings, then I have a bunch of Lehman stock to sell you.

The very people who drove the stock market through the roof based on their inability to identify real gains from ponzi schemes are the ones that are at fault for the roof caving in right now.

If you look at the Dow Chart, the trend has been going down down down since last May. All recent polls show the public has a large amount of confidence in Obama and his ability to lead. They also agree on his priorities. So it seems that it is the market which is out of step with reality.

I don't agree 100% with Obama's approach to this disaster -- the object of these bailouts seems to be to restore the wealth of the now impoverished elite and to keeping zombie corporations alive and on life support. Effing Wall street should be thrilled.

Why is it that righties like Don Smitty mock Obama as "the one"?

Remember when they worshipped Reagan along similar lines?

That's the smartest post I've seen in this thread for months.

I agree with that, SB. If I ran my company into such poor shape I'd be out on my ass. The same SHOULD be done to these banks and corporations (like Citibank and GM). However, I also understand that just the sheer size of these entities makes it virtually impossible for the government to turn its back on them.

It isn't fair but it's necessary.

We never should have allowed these industries to be so enmeshed with the US economy that they hold us hostage. So now the question then becomes how long can a bankrupt government keep propping up a bankrupt industry?

We need some new thinking. First get RID of all the management personnel---they failed, they're fired. Second, we find the most creative people in the land to take these companies over and completely overhaul them -- for example maybe retool those GM/Ford plants to make needed products like canned goods and ammunition instead of paying them taxpayer dollars not to make cars people don't want to buy. Dunno...just brainstorming.

Sounds like a good plan, SB.

The auto industry has to be COMPLETELY overhauled (and get some new energy efficient cars on the road) and it has to be done NOW. Perhaps that should be a condition set by the government before they give any more money to the car makers. Of course, the oil industry would be against that.

The banks need to be held accountable. F*ck these bigwigs who are getting big salaries and bonuses. They need to learn how to be self sufficient and if they fail, they fail (in the future). Some new, more conservative lending practices have to be put in place. But, that won't be pushed for by the government because that would mean less money in the economy to spend on housing, auto loans, etc.

Scary times, huh?

The amount of money these bigwig bankers have been paying themselves is nothing short of criminal!

They should throw the greedy fuckers in jail

What gets me is, we've known now for a long time that we'd need a "new" source of fuel and nobody has done anything about it. Now, everybody's scrambling finally taking it seriously. And on top of everything else, this adds to the new President's "to-do" list. Good Lord, where the hell do you start?

As far as the bigwig greedy SOBs, I'm with Yogi, throw them in jail. Btw, I have no qualms whatsoever with increasing taxes on the rich. Can't take it from the poor that's for sure. It's hard to find any sympathy whatsoever from these rich bitch Wall Street crooks isn't it?

TIS